Wrestling: The Redundant Martial Art
As MMA evolves, the received wisdom is that the effective, well-rounded fighter should study martial arts that teach striking, wrestling and submission grappling. In light of this and for historical reasons, Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ) and Wrestling have become the favorite styles of many aspiring cage warriors. But to the knowledgable martial artist, there seems to be a weird superfluity in this recipe: Wrestling and Jiu-Jitsu appear to teach overlapping skills. So does the martial artist who wants to streamline his focus really need both, or is one of these arts superfluous?
The answer is that a martial artist does not need both, because one of them is as superfluous as a truck-stop hooker's PhD. That art is Wrestling, an art that as currently taught is inferior to Judo or Jiu-Jitsu in fighting effectiveness, range of applicable skills, and practical efficiency.
In fact, Wrestling is only still being taught or recommended in MMA because the first crop of UFC fighters (who were very influential on the evolution of its culture and training methods) were drawn largely from American Collegiate Wrestling backgrounds. Due to their emotional attachment to their first sport and natural tendency to teach and promote what they knew, they have been reluctant to admit that wrestling became redundant when Jiu-Jitsu became an MMA staple. Let me explain why it did.
Early martial arts were remarkably effective. They had to be, as they evolved with one clear purpose: to effectively disarm, maim or kill your opponent on the battlefield. However, as peace prevailed across the world, the only way martial artists could regularly test and demonstrate their skill was in sporting competition. Killing people with your bare hands became as socially acceptable as farting in the elevator, and battlefield showdown opportunities simply weren't as frequent as in the days when you could just jog across the Savannah with a few of your tribesmen and behead a few guys from an enemy tribe.
However, the evolution of sports fighting severely weakened the martial arts. The modern forms of Muay Thai, Judo, Karate, Boxing and Wrestling are dominated by techniques that work in competition, but not necessarily on the street. They are all as watered-down as a corrupt bartender's Martinis. However, for the purposes of MMA, the watered-down versions of Judo/Jiu-Jitsu (for the purposes of this article, I will consider them identical) are much more effective and comprehensive than the watered-down version of Wrestling, as seen today in Greco-Roman, Freestyle and Collegiate Wrestling.
This is because sports Judo/Jiu-Jitsu still retains and teaches a wide range of effective take-down, grappling and submission skills. In competition, you can defeat your opponent by effectively throwing them, pinning them down, choking them into unconsciousness, or grappling them to submission with joint locks. This means the Jujutsuka has a wide repertoir of effective skills. Greco-Roman, Freestyle and Collegiate Wrestling on the other hand award victories in only two basic ways: pinning your opponent's shoulders to the ground, and winning points via spectacular take-downs. How does this gap in skills set matter in MMA? The various stages of MMA combat show how it renders Wrestling redundant vs. Judo/Jiu-Jitsu.
1. The Striking Distance Phase: While we can agree that both Wrestling and Judo/Jiu-Jitsu are weakest in the striking stage of a fight, the latter still have an edge. Due to the strong self-defense element still prevalent in their curriculum, practitioners- unlike wrestlers- are taught defense against striking techniques, such as the one below. This means they are more comfortable facing strikers than their wrestling counterparts:
Conclusion: For the Striking Phase, Choose Judo/Jiu-Jitsu over Wrestling.
2. The Clinch Phase: When fighters fall into each others' loving embrace, there are basically three offensive options: (1) Close-up striking (knees, elbows and short punches, all of which I will ignore as being an agreed weakness of both systems), (2) Standing chokes and submissions (which I will omit for now and examine in the ground phase), and (3) Take-downs. Both Wrestling and Judo/Jiu-Jitsu have a wide and deep repertoire of takedowns. In MMA, the three most popular takedowns taught by Wrestling are the Single-leg takedown, the Double-leg takedown, and the Suplex. All three can be spectacular:
via www.mma-core.com
via i45.tinypic.com
The problem with the Suplex, Single-leg and Double-leg takedowns however, is two fold. First, they are extremely inefficient ways to take down your opponent. Spectacular takedowns are favored in Wrestling, because points are scored for 'amplitude'. This means that the higher you can throw your opponent, the better. However, this requires a prodigious amount of energy to execute. Suplexes and leg takedowns involve physically lifting your opponent like a sack of potatoes. This wastes much more energy than is strictly necessary, and favors strong, athletic attackers.
Secondly, these takedowns require a 100% commitment by the attacker. Double-leg takedowns involve diving at your opponent's legs like a refugee rushing for free U.N. rations. Failure means finding yourself smooching his knee, sprawling on the ground, or grappling to regain control after he daintily skips his legs out of reach. Even success renders the attacker prone and, in a street fight, unable to deal with multiple attackers. It is simply too much effort to achieve a simple objective: getting your opponent off his feet.
Judo/Jiu-Jitsu takedowns on the other hand, have evolved according to a different philosophy from the spectacular athleticism favored in Wrestling. They strongly emphasize efficiency- using as little energy as possible to defeat your opponent. In fact, the central promise of Jiu-Jitsu, as effectively demonstrated at UFC 1, is that a smaller opponent can vanquish a larger foe by efficiently using his own strength and bulk against him. This means that Judo/Jiu-Jitsu takedowns tend to emphasize leg sweeps and throws that employ leverage and the skillful unbalancing of your opponent, rather than brute strength.
This principle is illustrated by this video of 25 Jiu-Jitsu throws being executed in less than three minutes. The executor also remains standing, meaning he is both dominant and able to respond to multiple attackers.
It would be interesting to see a wrestler attempt 25 suplexes or double-leg takedowns within the same time-frame. It simply can't be done without a prodigious and wasteful expenditure of effort and energy. In the Octagon, Judo-style throws achieve the same result as Wrestling-style takedowns with much less effort and much more style:
via gifsoup.com
Conclusion: For the Clinch Phase, Choose Judo/Jiu-Jitsu over Wrestling.
3. On The Ground: Once the lion and the lamb lie down side by side, they can strike from the ground, grapple for supremacy, or attempt submissions. Again, we can ignore the striking aspect of both styles as being largely irrelevant during this phase. With maneuvering or grappling for control of your opponent however, both styles come out about even, with Wrestling possibly having a slight edge. This is because Wrestling's focus on pinning your opponent's shoulders builds expert skill in ground grappling, but then so does Judo/Jiu-Jitsu's focus on controlling your opponent on the mat.
In applying submissions- breaking (or threatening to break) your opponents' limbs like a politician's campaign promise, or choking them into unconsciousness- Judo/Jiu-Jitsu is the clear leader. Chokes, locks and submissions are central to victory in their competitions, unlike in Wrestling, in which pinning your opponent is the primary objective.
Conclusion: For the Ground Phase, Choose Judo/Jiu-Jitsu over Wrestling.
So in summary, while there is of course considerable overlap in both styles, the fighter meaning to focus and streamline his training efforts must conclude that Judo/Jiu-Jitsu is preferable to Wrestling for the Clinch and Ground phases of a fight, and that Wrestling is in fact decidedly redundant. Every skill it teaches also exists in Judo/Jiu-Jitsu, and the latter executes takedowns more efficiently, while teaching a range of techniques (chokes, locks and submissions) not taught in Wrestling. One striking art (Karate, Muay Thai or Kickboxing) and either Judo or Jiu-Jitsu is all that is needed to become a complete and elite MMA fighter. Miesha Tate, prepare to be schooled.
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PS: One bonus benefit of Judo is that when you grow old and become a respectable politician, it remains the most effective way to batter your political opponents into submission when mere debate is simply not enough:
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That art is Wrestling, an art that as currently taught is inferior to Judo or Jiu-Jitsu in fighting effectiveness, range of applicable skills, and practical efficiency.
You’re a witty Snowden.
Wrestling, the most “ineffective art” is the strongest base for MMA and most effective and responsible for the most success in MMA history, and will continue to be in the future, bar none. Being able to control where the fight goes is priceless.
It is a general consensus that wrestling is the best base, and most effective art.
The sport, regardless of little kids growing up mixing the arts, will be dominated (as in majority of the top 10 in each division) by the best wrestlers. Wrestlers have the Olympics, WWE (a TINY %) and now MMA to go to.
The problem with the Suplex, Single-leg and Double-leg takedowns however, is two fold. First, they are extremely inefficient ways to take down your opponent.
You are fucking mind boggling stupid.
This means that the higher you can throw your opponent, the better
My HS wrestling coach would slap that shit out someone dumb enough to say/do that back in the day.
Double-leg takedowns involve diving at your opponent’s legs like a refugee rushing for free U.N. rations.
You are trolling. Have you no clue what set-ups and technique are? You are really ruining an otherwise shitty write-up (wait, what?).
a simple objective: getting your opponent off his feet.
Yes, oh so simple.. You fucking baboon’s ass.
In fact, Wrestling is only still being taught or recommended in MMA because the first crop of UFC fighters (who were very influential on the evolution of its culture and training methods) were drawn largely from American Collegiate Wrestling backgrounds. Due to their emotional attachment
RIght, it has nothing to do with the effectiveness of wrestling. You dipshit.
Judo/Jiu-Jitsu (for the purposes of this article, I will consider them identical)
Well, they’re not. Consider yourself a moron, moron.
The “which art is best” post comes every other month or so. A post discrediting the effectiveness of one of the staple arts by using fouled logic and no real basis (ie see history of wrestlers in MMA) shows your card. And from the looks of it you don’t have a good hand.
You have been banned from Bloody Elbow.
I don’t know what you said, but I don’t like you.
12/22/11
"You actually got banned 3 times in 2 minutes by 3 different people"
by *Californication* on Feb 15, 2012 3:09 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
Mot seems to enjoy the flashier arts and that’s fine but to discredit an already proven art is fouled.
If it was not useful then why is Blackhouse bringing in Mark Munoz and not any Judo players and they ahve BJJ. As long as you can defend against it then you implement your game.
See Chuck Liddell and Anderson Silva. Elite strikers who trained in BJJ and Wrestling moreso to defend against superior specialist and knock em the fuck out.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 8:16 AM EST up reply actions
i agree with what your saying
but….. the reson blackhouse and every other camp for that matter are bringing in wrestlers is because everyone in the ufc is training wrestling, until dana starts bringing elite judo sambo krav maga and even elite bjj practitioners who train mma or even a striking art for that matter there is always going to be a need to train wrestling.as it stands i think and imo mma is becoming an art in itself with striking wrestling and bjj being the fundamentals of the art, an opinion i think most mma fans would agree on.
+1
Exactly. Like I said in the article, the early UFC fighters were mostly wrestlers, so it has just become received wisdom that you need wrestling training. Everybody does it because everybody does it. However, if you examine the skills bases of wrestling and Judo/Jiu-Jitsu as I’ve tried to do objectively, you realize that wrestling is really unnecessary if you master the latter.
The best fighters in the UFC STILL must be proficient in wrestling. The entire WW division is wrestlers for the most part, JDS has great TDD, Silva almost lost to a mediocre wrestler. You are smoking crack. Wrestling is the most common base for MMA fighters still today.
"He's got a great package... and an unusual one!" Joe Rogan (of Lyoto Machida)
I came to this party late...
the earliest UFC fighters WERE NOT WRESTLERS until UFC 4… they were kickboxers, boxers, BJ, kungfu etc… and fighters with a lot of useless years of training with shit that didnt work… severn was the 1st pure wrestler to come on board… and as far as street fighting goes… wrestling does work, I have gotten into enough fights growing up to know that it does.
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
u guys got it all wrong. Especially the who Grappling on the ground position wise,…
Judo and BJJ work comfortably from thier back… Wrestlers not so much.
Wrestlers have it engrained in them to…
a) When prone they put an arm out…. Its in the rules… Theres a bad habit.
b) Also when lying they raise thier chin… so you cant use half nelsons or tilting… CHOKE.
Look at stances… even wrestlers stand square and slouched… not exactly practical for mma. Judo nice and straight with lots of manueverability.
wrestlers always come forward forward… Judo can move and attack going in any direction.
The two bad things about judo is turtling and over throwing the person/or them rerolling you… not good for mma.
I hate it when people say you have to be a good wrestler to when in reality they mean GRAPPLER.
No one can deny WRESTLING isnt a valuable asset… But better than judo thats a whole other ball of wax.
Wrestling is a collegate sport, Judo isnt. That is one major reason why Judo is on the down side. People actually do JUDO for recreation. I have yet to meet a recreational wrestler.. they usually have some competitive fram of mind.
Now lets stereo type…
Wrestlers tend to be more physically fit, stronger and mentally tougher.
Judoka tend to be more quicker and technical while mentally more focused.
Wrestling is a forgiving sport… you can lose a round and come back….
Judo a second of absent mindedness and your bowing off the mat wondering what happened.
I think if your a wrestler from child to adult, wrestling serves you very well cause it puts you in to the competitive mindframe and dedication.
Judo on the other hand is better for a mid to late teen or anyone starting as an adult.
I think the problem is in this article Mot is trying to prove that wrestling isn't a valuable asset.
It is one hell of a troll post he created.
+1
5-3, undefeated and undisputed, beat me ... if you can.
I clearly didnt learn my lesson the first time, The Pride has smashed me AGAIN. My excess estrogen has destroyed my life, I make Chaz Bono look like a real man"
I don't getw hat you are trying to say
dana starts bringing elite judo sambo krav maga and even elite bjj practitioners
Dana White doesn’t acre what art you use, it is if you can apply your art and beat the guys in the UFC. Andrei Arlovski (Sambo), Maia (BJJ), Karo Parisyan and Manny Gamburyan (Judo). The reason nobody uses Krav Manga because it doesn’t work in MA if it did then we’d see atleast one self proclaimed Krav Manga fighter in MMA.
The reason a Striking art, wrestling and BJJ seem to dominant is because they work. If you allowed knees to the head of a downed opponant then wrestlers would end a lot more people.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 8:59 AM EST up reply actions
not sure I agree with the whole knees to the head and wrestling finishing faster…
Wrestlers shoot. Get stuffed and thier heads kneed off…
Machida, Anderson Silva, Fedor all have somekind of judo background.
heck even look at Bones… he said he spent a week reviewing JUDO footsweeps and pulled em off.
another tool in the tool box
but not the main base of any of those you mentioned.
That is where I have the problem with this article. Mixed Martial Arts. Those that mix them best are the best.
No need to put down one of the legacy arts (See Mot, I told you I would steal it) to try to prove apoint.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
I paid them to Kyu, who bought Nurse Julie ass implants
cause I likes ’em big.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
there are elite judo, sambo, and BJJ players
who train MMA in the UFC…what’s your point?
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
Mot seems to enjoy the flashier arts and that’s fine
Actually, wrestling is often much more flashy than Judo/Jiu-Jitsu. There is nothing more spectacular than a massive, high-amplitude suplex. And the sight of a powerful wrestler lifting his opponent up by both legs and slamming him is awesome to see.
However, that’s the problem- it requires too much energy to execute those takedowns. Judo/Jiu-Jitsu can achieve the same thing with a simple ankle trip and a slight push. So if what you want is fighting effectiveness and efficiency rather than a spectacular display of athletic agility, you’re better off learning Judo/Jiu-Jitsu than wrestling.
Yes but if iw ant to achieve in MA i better know wrestling as it seems everyone trains in it, why? ebacuse it works. Nobody would train in wrestling if it didn’tw ork.
It is like when you’re a kid and the kid who trained ‘karate’ had nothing once you took him down. Did we also NOT see a huge trend of people doing Karate after Machida proved it worked to a degree?
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 9:03 AM EST up reply actions
Yes but if iw ant to achieve in MA i better know wrestling as it seems everyone trains in it, why? ebacuse it works. Nobody would train in wrestling if it didn’tw ork.
1. Everyone trains in wrestling because the first crop of UFC fighters were mostly wrestlers. They set the tone. If they had all been Capoeira fighters, everyone would be training Capoeira.
2. I never said wrestling doesn’t work, so you’re debating an argument I never made. For example, I said
Wrestling’s focus on pinning your opponent’s shoulders builds expert skill in ground grappling.
My point is that Judo/Jiu-Jitsu teach things (like chokes and submissions) that wrestling doesn’t, while also teaching everything that wrestling does (takedowns and grappling), and in some cases doing them better. Therefore, it is a waste of time to train both wrestling and Jiu-Jitsu.
1. Everyone trains in wrestling because the first crop of UFC fighters were mostly wrestlers. They set the tone. If they had all been Capoeira fighters, everyone would be training Capoeira.
And what was the finals of UFC 1? two submission based grapplers. Did the winner being of a bjj background change the impact of striking or wrestlers. Royce tapped out many wrestlers but didn’t wrestlers eventually take over the sport but simply learning how to defend submissions?.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 9:16 AM EST up reply actions
to be fair
gracie fought gordeau in the finals, who was a savate kickboxer…but i was going to make the exact same point, people dont keep training BJJ because royce did it, thats why they started…they continue because it works, and the same principle holds true for wrestling
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
it takes about a full 4 yrs to become a black belt in wrestling if there was one.
Wrestling with a little Jiu-Jitsu stuffs Jiu-Jitsu. I have kids I coach in high school wrestling that have done amatuer MMA… when they come from Jiu-Jitsu background they have a hard time dealing with wrestlers because they go to their back to easily but when they learn wrestling 1st and then go to Jiu-Jitsu the kick some Jiu-Jitsu ass and eventually become a double threat… One of our ex-wrestlers (JC state Champ) is now in amatuer MMA and he has no fear of being takendown and likes to stand… it is his wrestling base that allows him to take the fight where he wants.
I can tell you have never been in a wrestling room… if u worked out for 2 weeks in a solid wrestling program you would be shocked by how tough and technical it is and how hard it is to learn
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
However, that’s the problem- it requires too much energy to execute those takedowns
if you do it wrong…if you set up a double leg well and then explode through it, it doesnt take any more effort than a judo throw
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
He thinks you are literally using every ounce of energy in your soul to take someone down. A double leg can be so easy when you hit momentum and your opponents timing like in any throw. A mis-timed judo throw can be a heck of struggle in itself.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
Motmaitre is partially right it does require a lot of energy to take someone down
but that’s why wrestlers are often pushed or push themselves to get into the best shape possible… wrestlers bring in a tougher mentality than most other disciplines
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
The amount of energy really depends on the takedown and how good of a counter wrestler your opponent is.
Even a power double can take little energy and minimal lift if your opponent has no knowledge of take down defense and just lets you unbalance them. And honestly that is what some MMA fighters look like when they get in the ring with a really experienced wrestler.
very true it takes a lot of practice to get that timing down perfectly
I took me 3 years of practice to get a slick double and add in trips and other techniques along with it and Im still learning more and more about setups… it took me 3yrs just to get a firemans right and about 4 years to perfect a single and use the multiple combinations of offense off it.
we have lots of powerful guys come into wrestling yet, very few can make it past sections. Yet we have some guys that arent very strong but through technique and scrambling and timing and dedication make it to masters.
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
Yeah I can’t say I was ever great at wrestling but I had some friends who were in the state finals every year in high school. During football season when practice would get rained out we would spend time in the weight room and on the wrestling mats and I can definitely agree with you in saying that Mot has never done any actual wrestling. Because we saw a lot of big guys get tooled by small wrestlers during those sessions.
And the relationship of that to my post is...?
I’m not sure you actually read the post, because both of you are arguing against imaginary points.
So you’re both wrestlers. That explains your instinctive and emotional defensiveness towards wrestling. However, if you both calmed down and actually read the post, maybe you could address the points I made instead of the ones you imagine I made.
Have you practised Judo or Jiu-Jitsu? If not, then you are guilty of what you’re accusing me of. How can you refute the argument unless you objectively compare both martial arts?
The points were simple. Here is the cliff notes version for those too lazy to read the article, or those that are comprehension-challenged:
1. The article was targeted at MMA fighters who have to plan their training. Instead of practising 2 grappling arts, they should streamline their time and money by doing the better one- Judo/JJ.
1. Sports wrestling (not catch wrestling, not submission grappling) is a main feeder sport for UFC fighters.
2. In MMA, certain sports wrestling techniques are favored in the Octagon. Those are what I’m addressing, not the full theoretical catalog of wrestling moves.
3. In takedowns from the clinch, the Judo/BJJ philosophy of leverage is more efficient than the sports wrestling philosophy of amplitude and athelicism, as demonstrated in the respective moves from both most commonly used IN MMA.
4. On the ground, wrestling and Judo/BJJ are about equal, with wrestling possibly having a slight edge because the focus on pinning your opponent teaches strong skills in controlling him.
5. In submissions, chokes, locks, etc, Judo/JJ is clearly superior because these don’t count in sports wrestling.
Adding these points together, the MMA fighter should choose Judo/BJJ as his grappling art if he wants to streamline his focus.
Simple. I did not say wrestling was not effective. I did not mention wrestling moves not generally used in MMA, or forms of wrestling not represented in MMA. If you are unable to address these simple points, then you are debating a straw man of your own imagining.
Only one person has actually addressed these points, by intelligently saying that some of the more efficient takedowns displayed in the Octagon are actually from wrestling, not Judo/JJ. That is the only intelligent argument that refutes point 3. Nobody has addressed point 4. And a lot of irrelevant arguments show that people are ignoring points 1 and 2 by arguing too broadly.
Just because you post "cliff notes" does not make what you said any more correct.
It is still trash because learning just judo will not help you in MMA. Which has been proven over the years of the sport. Wrestling takedowns have a much higher accuracy and therefore benefit a person training MMA much more. If you cannot get the fight to the ground that training in JJ submissions does no good whatsoever.
And as far as “efficiency” is concerned if you have to try a judo takedown 15 times it doesn’t matter how much more “efficient” you think it is. You just wasted a lot of time and energy.
Look at Justin Salas in the last event for takedowns without much strain
and the taekdowns of Frankie Edgar vs Maynard / Penn and Rashad vs Rampage. I think they are some well known examples of how wrestling takedowns are perfect to counter punches in mma.
5-3, undefeated and undisputed, beat me ... if you can.
I clearly didnt learn my lesson the first time, The Pride has smashed me AGAIN. My excess estrogen has destroyed my life, I make Chaz Bono look like a real man"
suplexes???
are you talking about WWE wrestling or wrestling wrestling? you seriously think judo hip tosses are not more spectacular than picking up a guys leg, stepping to the side and dragging him to the ground?
you present a deluded view of both wrestling and judo.
by lordrubbish on Feb 15, 2012 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
Their both amazing, the best wrestling suplexes are a perfect resort of finding the absolute best enertia.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
i agree
i’m addressing Mot’s claim that wrestling is flashy whereas judo isn’t. both are flashy and technical.
by lordrubbish on Feb 15, 2012 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
I agree, i was adding to your point
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, GSP has really suffered from all the wasted energy wrestling, Rashad, Cormier, Jon Jones, and Sonnen.
You don’t think takedowns tire out the opponent too? The number of judo successes in the ufc are pretty small. jiu jitsu is great for the submission game and positioning. Wrestling takedowns from greco roman, and freestyle are the premiere way to dictate the fight though. A BJJ fighter that can’t get a takedown isn’t going to be doing squat.
"He's got a great package... and an unusual one!" Joe Rogan (of Lyoto Machida)
Let me stop your babble train at this station...
You keep talking about point awarded for amplitude in the same sentence as collegiate wrestling, … Collegiate wrestling the throws you’re referring to aren’t scored higher, in collegiate scoring favors control… whereas in Greco and Freestyle the scoring favors action and throws… In Grec-Roman wrestling is what you’re referring to as far as scoring. Also work etthic and training for wrestling as well as great base, which is a natural defense to Judo and Jits makes it an effective base for MMA… You’re possibly the most long winded, ill educated person I have ever read more than a paragraph by…
by PorkchopSandwich on Feb 16, 2012 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
Splitting hairs
Why don’t you address the main points instead of splitting hairs on peripheral points about the different areas of emphasis? Do you really expect me to write a separate paragraph for Freestyle, Collegiate and Greco-Roman? How does that change the central argument? In fact, if collegiate wrestling emphasises control rather than efficient takedowns from the clinch, doesn’t that support my argument about wrestling being weaker in efficient takedowns?
Your inability to address the main points reassures me of their validity. Thanks.
It is a general consensus that wrestling is the best base, and most effective art.
the only people i hear say that wrestling is the best base has been from rogan and goldie true story
is that why Georges St. Pierre became the dominant champion he was after he began reving up his wrestling?
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 8:35 AM EST up reply actions
then you need to listen to more people
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
soooooo...
i guess i have nothing left to say here
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
lol
You have been banned from Bloody Elbow.
I don’t know what you said, but I don’t like you.
12/22/11
"You actually got banned 3 times in 2 minutes by 3 different people"
by *Californication* on Feb 15, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Stupidity knows no bounds
Pro Sig record:14-6
1 Month sig bet with 10th Degree Whitebelt that DJ does NOT win the FLW tournament
Sig bet with KaleJohnCox on Alves-Kamp. ALVES
2 month Sig/Pic bet with theoregonduck on Poirier-Zombie. POIRIER
ive been saying it for a while now
you dont need to wrestle to be effective in mma as it stands only 2 champions have wrestling backgrounds jones and edgar correct me if im mistaken, people who say u need wrestling have been brought up listening to joe rogan commentary and how he and goldie are always harping on about how much mma fighters are more effective when they have a good wrestling base, i think A,S, aldo, jds, shit on that theory everytime they fight.
only 2 champions have wrestling backgrounds jones and edgar correct me if im mistaken
Anderson Silva, Georges St.Pierre, Junior Dos Santos and Jose Aldo also come from countries where wrestling isn’t as big in the high school and college systems.
How many of these guys have trained or brought in the best guys to learn wrestling?. Nma ethe amount of judo champions vs. wrestlers or tae kwon do vs. wrestlers.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 7:55 AM EST up reply actions
well, yes
bones and edgar did grow up wrestling, as did dominick cruz…however, JDS has great TDD and works on that tirelessly so he can execute his boxing…GSP is THE BEST WRESTLER IN MMA regardless of background, so you cant say that he has no background in wrestling, because despite that he has trained it to the point of being elite…jose aldo has some of the best TDD in MMA, and that does not come without training…so yes, only 3 of 7 grew up with it, but 6 of 7 are great at it
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
is the left out one Anderson ebcause evn he has great TDD. Look at the very select few who could get him down.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
sonnen, maia, hendo
lutter, okami, horn, camoes…im sorry, i dont think hes that great a wrestler…its one thing to get taken down, but hes been taken down over and over again
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
you’re memory is better than mine but maybe he doesn’t mind being on the rgound ebcause he ended up beating them all even in vulnerable positions.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
yh that was a bit of a silly comment LSC to be fair
"ever heard of a tune up? tee hee hee hee
"ah hee hee hee ever heard of a ritual killing? tee hee hee hee"
"i dont get it"
"you gnaw on her face in public like that again and you'll be one tee hee hee hee"
JDS has "great" wrestling now?
Really??? Why?
Because he stopped one Cain takedown and like 3 sloppy lunges from Nelson?
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
Carwin, Cain, Nelson ain’t too shabby when you look at his years in MMA. I mean he never afced Brock but based onw hat we know now, dow you think Brock wouldve took him down at will?
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
I think Brock would have gotten KO'd in under 10 seconds
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
well look what wrestling did to silva
in the sonnen fight. prehaps if silva knew how to wrestle hed have won in the 1st instead of being completely dominated and rag dolled for 4 1/2 rounds.
"Here we are with Seraldo Babalu, you did an awesome job, saw why you’re a black belt in jiu-jitsu, getting an awesome submission there, I want to tell me what you see, let’s go ahead and see by the fight, what you saw, in the ring." - Tito (the Head) Ortiz - Great Commentator, or Greatest Commentator.
"GSP is me."
by El Pablo Diablo on Feb 15, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
tHe dUMBness
Dominick Cruz champion-wrestling/but is now an elite striker
Frankie Edgar champion-wrestling/but is now an elite striker
GSP Champion- trained extensive wrestling with olympic wrestlers for 6yrs
Jon Jones Champion- wrestling/ but is now an elite striker
now go through the top 10 contenders in each division and tell me that’s not loaded with wrestlers.
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
good post
elite striking is and always should be the best and first base for a mma fighter period.
are you being sarcastic?
put a boxer in an mma fight and see what happens. you need at least some bjj and/or wrestling base and fundamentals to be successful.. to ignore that is at best ignorant, and at worst, just plain old fashioned stupid.
"Here we are with Seraldo Babalu, you did an awesome job, saw why you’re a black belt in jiu-jitsu, getting an awesome submission there, I want to tell me what you see, let’s go ahead and see by the fight, what you saw, in the ring." - Tito (the Head) Ortiz - Great Commentator, or Greatest Commentator.
"GSP is me."
by El Pablo Diablo on Feb 15, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
they've already done that in early UFC's... all pure standup fighters get smashed by pure wrestlers
However, pure wrestlers get smashed by JuJu, however, once the wrestlers have a few months JuJu defense training they smash JuJu….. what the fuck is wrong with madness/Moitaire? they don’t understand MMA… it’s like they were WWE fans and just transitioned over to MMA and when they joined Mania they
were shocked that no one was using kungfu and we all were making fun of Steven Segal.
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
Fighters shouldn't be training wrestling or judo, they should be doing gymnastics!
You go out there and start acting like a terrorist, you're gonna get Osama Bin Laden'd
1 rec with 0 comments?
Oh dear…
Signed
It's time to move on
by cl4im3r on Feb 15, 2012 7:54 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Yeah man, you are like totally the first comment in here,
retard
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
He has a supernatural boner for Mot.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
"If you seek truth you will not seek victory by dishonorable means, and if you find truth you will become invincible." - Epictetus
When I first read the article, there were 0 comments and 1 rec. Having to explain that, earns you a fuckyoo.
It's time to move on
by cl4im3r on Feb 15, 2012 10:24 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
You posted your comment at 7:54
The first comment in the fan post was made at 3:09.
Are you trying to tell me that it took your phone nearly 5 hours to load a comment? If so, you might want to upgrade…
Oh, and get off Mot’s nuts.
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
He may need to obtain a brain upgrade too
If he doesn’t realize it is possible to rec a post without posting a comment.
Then again, this is the same genius who assumed Blackfly was the reason the Recent fanpost widget was taken offline. So one can’t expect too much from him, from an intellectual standpoint.
I’m fine with him continuing. Every time he touches his keyboard, he embarrasses himself further and proves beyond a reasonable doubt that you can’t fix stupid.
youre not really one to talk
after this piece…theres so much wrong in this post its utterly shocking
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
Because his opinion differs from yours?
All I got to add to this debate is that Anderson Silva has been the #1 lb for lb fighter in the world for several years now and he has the worst wrestling I’ve seen in MMA
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
but he has great ground game which gets him off his backa nd back onto his feet.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
oh, so he uses he Judo/BJJ to get him back up?
I thought this conversation was about Anderson’s wrestling skills.
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
His wrestling isn’t great but his BJJ saves face. Heck he’s been tooken down and been just fine.
I’m adding a new point, if that’s okay on your site VM.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
hey VM
Get off Mot’s nuts…
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
But how can the best fighter in the world suck at wrestling if its soooooo important?
That just doesn’t make any sense.
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
what do you mean?
GSP, Jose Aldo(TDD) and Dominick Cruz are all very good wrestlers.
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
He means Asilva is the best and has below average wrestling.
Being taken down by grapplers like Horn,Hendo,Sonnen, Luutter and Okami is no shame in my books.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
I know what he meant
I think AS is behind GSP and Aldo
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
and Aldo? that’s crazy to hear but you seem to be a smart fan.
Aldo’s kneeing of Mendes may resurge him kinda like when AS subbed Chael and then stopped Belfort and Okami
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
yes, I think Aldo has a more complete game
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
AS does say he’d retire if Aldo was 185…dodging fights lefta nd right huh, jk
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
Im guessing the Nova Uniao team in Brazil
trains more MMA/wrestling than just pure jiu jitsu… those guys do it right… instead of just going to their backs they probably train to defend against takedowns and then once they’re down they’re trained to get back up to their feet… If they can’t get off their backs they go into Jiu jitsu mode… that’s my take on it
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
ask CA
he trains there
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
california? known as cali?
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
character analysis
Pro Sig record:16-6
1 Month sig bet with 10th Degree Whitebelt that DJ does NOT win the FLW tournament
Sig bet with KaleJohnCox on Alves-Kamp. ALVES
2 month Sig/Pic bet with theoregonduck on Poirier-Zombie. POIRIER
"I dont pay attention to all that artsy crap. I only like vaginas and violence"
And Cruz apparently, dumbass
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
I threw cruz into the first comment because he is a wrestler
I do have him probably 5th, behind AS and Edgar
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
Was referring to Anderson
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
first of all, its your opinion that hes the best fighter
his track record speaks for itself, so i would tend to agree with you as well…that being said, i think GSP and Bones both have the skillset to beat him if those matches were ever made…also, i never said that you need to be a top notch wrestler to be successful, but im arguing the point that it is worthless if you know BJJ or judo, which Mot is saying it is…you also need to look at the fights, not the record; silva got his ass kicked by sonnen because sonnen was the superior wrestler, if not for a hail mary sub (hail mary in a sense of the clock; it was beautifully set up), no one is calling silva the best fighter in the world anymore
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
I agree as well MM
Question that I was just thinking about.
Say you had the choice of being a fighter that has top notch, world class wrestling skills, but also have the stand up of Rolles Gracie and the BJJ skills of Chael Sonnen
OR
Someone with world class muay thai and BJJ and the wrestling skills of James Toney.
Which would you prefer?
If you have the wrestling and nothing else, sure you dictate where the fight takes place but if you are a master at MT and BJJ, you are comfortable wherever the fight goes.
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
So in example one you are an expert in 1 thing but in example 2 you are an expert in 2 things?
Who wouldn’t choose option 2?
yep but there have been more examples of 1 dimensional
wrestlers winning fights than vice versa
"ever heard of a tune up? tee hee hee hee
"ah hee hee hee ever heard of a ritual killing? tee hee hee hee"
"i dont get it"
"you gnaw on her face in public like that again and you'll be one tee hee hee hee"
Fair point
Make it a specialist in wrestling and sumo
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
nice obscure #2, lol
that isn’t redundant at all.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
Why would you specialize in MMA?
I thought the point of MMA was to get away from specializing…
I live in America! Land of the coward, home of the slave. Watch that TV, go to that football game, that circus, CNN, MSNBC, FOX and other mainstream media are not owned by large corporations, they are always honest and fair and they never lie to you. Whatever you do don't read history books, don't study the constitution, do everything you can possibly do to be happy in life. Just don't ever get involved in your government, big brother will take care of you. Your elected officials always do what's in your best interest, there is no corruption in our government, good little sheep, just make yourself happy, just entertain yourself, the government is only here to entertain you and take care of you and feed you and make you happy, don't you worry your little head over world affairs.
by O damn he got caught on Feb 15, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
its interesting
i think the guys that come up training just MMA end up being fairly average at everything, but great at nothing. I think its best if a guy has 4 to 5 years in one base and then transitions
Pro Sig record:14-6
1 Month sig bet with 10th Degree Whitebelt that DJ does NOT win the FLW tournament
Sig bet with KaleJohnCox on Alves-Kamp. ALVES
2 month Sig/Pic bet with theoregonduck on Poirier-Zombie. POIRIER
youre absolutely correct
but id rather have wrestling and striking or wrestling and BJJ than striking and BJJ…your choice is easy – master of 1 discipline vs. master of 2…but then answer me this…you have the choice to have world class striking and BJJ, wrestling and BJJ, or striking and wrestling, what do you choose?
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
striking and wrestling
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
last I checked
to win in MMA, you don’t NEED a finish. you can WIN with just CONTROL
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
And that sucks in MMA. That's why you have wrestling tournaments, BJJ tourneys, etc.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
"If you seek truth you will not seek victory by dishonorable means, and if you find truth you will become invincible." - Epictetus
it does suck
but it is the way it is, and the reason that wrestling is such a good base.
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
Good for today's judging, yes. Hence the reason why so many fans are up in arms about "point victories".
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
"If you seek truth you will not seek victory by dishonorable means, and if you find truth you will become invincible." - Epictetus
I agree with you
I think there should be more standups, with 5 minute rounds, there should never be more than 40 seconds with out the fighter in a dominant position trying to improve upon that position.
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
A basketball shot clock for that situation? Hmmm...that's a good idea.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
"If you seek truth you will not seek victory by dishonorable means, and if you find truth you will become invincible." - Epictetus
We need more referees with balls who will break a stalemate.
But just because a fight is stalled on the ground doesn’t mean it has to be reset on the feet. They could reset judo-style. back-to-back sitting down.
"It’s Mark Pavelich calling from the Maximum Fighting Championship,
I’ve just received notice that Drew Fickett or you, I don’t care which one of you fuckers did it, has signed a contract to fight in Strikeforce this fucking weekend. I’m going to get on a fucking plane soon and go where you’re at and choke you the fuck out. I’m telling you right now, I’ve had enough of your fucking shit. First of all, I’ve sent you the fucking pictures and secondly, I placed Drew Fickett in a fight fucking months ago and five weeks prior to my main event of my fucking fight card. You’re going to give me a fucking call tomorrow or I swear I’ll get on a fucking plane and go right where you’re at right now. You’re pissing me off, I’ve been nothing but professional to you motherfuckers and you’re doing this kind of bullshit, alright? Call me back, I’m fucking pissed."
by Swedish Chef smerdy herdy verdy on Feb 15, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
so why not have wrestling and bjj? why the need for judo?
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
again avoiding me
who said you have to take him down…play it like chuck and keep the fight standing and finish him on the feet
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
hey, look at that
youre wrong too…you two are made for each other
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
correct me if im wrong
but when hughes submitted almeida didnt he say that was an old “wrestling” choke?
"ever heard of a tune up? tee hee hee hee
"ah hee hee hee ever heard of a ritual killing? tee hee hee hee"
"i dont get it"
"you gnaw on her face in public like that again and you'll be one tee hee hee hee"
that was to Mot
"ever heard of a tune up? tee hee hee hee
"ah hee hee hee ever heard of a ritual killing? tee hee hee hee"
"i dont get it"
"you gnaw on her face in public like that again and you'll be one tee hee hee hee"
It is. I knew a lot of dudes who would basically pass someone out, then pin them. The idea that chokes don’t occur in wrestling is wrong.
Myth: Three Americans die every year from rabies. Fact: Four Americans die every year die from rabies.
Just like fingers up the ass
all legit wrestling moves!
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
The oil check is sadly used for setting up a switch…you can’t say it isn’t effective though
Myth: Three Americans die every year from rabies. Fact: Four Americans die every year die from rabies.
I use that strategy as a set up as well, however, I am not setting up a switch.
I am setting up my face!
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
He doesn’t know that, he thinks it has to be a flashy joke to be a choke, putting your fucking forearm across the throat. How bout Catch wrestling MOT YOU FUCKING RETARD
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
it was a front choke
dave schultz kinda invented it, he won gold for the US in 84 or 88…basically, its just hanging on to a snap down takedown, and putting all your strength into it
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
K, I can pin someone down and punch them in the face...
Duh… I use wrestling so that I can use my fist. Wow..
I live in America! Land of the coward, home of the slave. Watch that TV, go to that football game, that circus, CNN, MSNBC, FOX and other mainstream media are not owned by large corporations, they are always honest and fair and they never lie to you. Whatever you do don't read history books, don't study the constitution, do everything you can possibly do to be happy in life. Just don't ever get involved in your government, big brother will take care of you. Your elected officials always do what's in your best interest, there is no corruption in our government, good little sheep, just make yourself happy, just entertain yourself, the government is only here to entertain you and take care of you and feed you and make you happy, don't you worry your little head over world affairs.
by O damn he got caught on Feb 15, 2012 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
if ur going to add in striking/wrestling
that includes striking on the ground… GnP… that’s what good fighters/wrestlers do…. but if you’re looking at pure wrestling in MMa… go watch Ben Askren.
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
I'd go with wrestling and striking
although, if I wanted to retain my sexy image with the ladies, I’d go with striking and BJJ.
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
your daughters don't count here...
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
but yours do!
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
I could that
you resemble any number of cartoon characters they watch.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
At least a cartoon character was never based off of the real me. But it has for you :

Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
too easy
but I disagree:
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
Fuck you VM
Now I got “Lets go giants clap clap clap-clap-clap” stuck in my head.
I live in America! Land of the coward, home of the slave. Watch that TV, go to that football game, that circus, CNN, MSNBC, FOX and other mainstream media are not owned by large corporations, they are always honest and fair and they never lie to you. Whatever you do don't read history books, don't study the constitution, do everything you can possibly do to be happy in life. Just don't ever get involved in your government, big brother will take care of you. Your elected officials always do what's in your best interest, there is no corruption in our government, good little sheep, just make yourself happy, just entertain yourself, the government is only here to entertain you and take care of you and feed you and make you happy, don't you worry your little head over world affairs.
by O damn he got caught on Feb 15, 2012 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
hahaha, and to think I was just about to change it to
New York Giants, Super Bowl CHAMPIONS!
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 16, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
VM
I see where you’re coming from with this post, but hot damn… I mean c’mon man. You can say that it is possible to be a great MMArtist without a strong wrestling base, but not wrestling is an ineffective base for a MMArtist…
by PorkchopSandwich on Feb 16, 2012 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
no room for anybody else VM?
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
lol
Drew has squeezed his way on as well, but he is shallow and just likes Mot’s flourishing use of the English language…
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
yeah, an inordinate amount of superfluous verbage for me
ha, see what i did there
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
Was the use of superfluous superfluous?
If so, perhaps you could indicate the superfluity. Otherwise, I must conclude that your comment is superfluous.
Also, your silly similes are as poor as a homeless crack whore who can’t get anyone to purchase her services.
When a Texan decides to take his chances, you know chances will be taken.
pshh
thats a metaphor dub…tisk tisk
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
Remedial English for you
Use of ‘as’ or ‘like’ is a simile; saying one thing IS another thing = metaphor.
When a Texan decides to take his chances, you know chances will be taken.
i actually did mix those two up
however, in the broader sense of the definition, a simile is actually a type of metaphor…call it even?
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
i've noticed youre avoiding me
was your goal to post this and then refuse to engage anyone that knows more about the subject than you? because, while theres a number of people on this site that could better debate you on this, they dont seem to be here…to someone who has never trained a day in their life, take it from someone whos been training for over 4 years – theyre not the same, you need both sides, neither is superfluous
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
I don't trade insults, MM
I’m too old for that. I ignore personal attacks. If you want to debate the points vigorously like some have done however, I always enjoy that.
Magicmike has been arguing in a fair and polite manner. His experiences have made him find your points to be insulting.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
i'm sorry but your post is an insult
to an entire discipline
by lordrubbish on Feb 15, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
im not asking you to trade insults
im calling out your points, and have done so up and down this thread…the only thing you responded to was a trolling comment i made to the uber-troll himself danago…your comments are baseless and come from a place of non-education, and your defenses of them circumvent the topic and are, quite frankly, weak…you have no leg to stand on in this argument, and youve yet to prove that you can effectively debate it
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
LOL!
Mike is offensive with his knowledge obviously, best avoid him.
5-3, undefeated and undisputed, beat me ... if you can.
I clearly didnt learn my lesson the first time, The Pride has smashed me AGAIN. My excess estrogen has destroyed my life, I make Chaz Bono look like a real man"
I don't hang from Mot's nuts
I hang from Nurse Julie’s taint.
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
I viewed the article without commenting.
Dude.. Nothing personal but you’re a total dumbass for not working that out.
Dude.. Nothing personal but you’re a total dumbass for not working that out.As for mot, its no sweat off my back to troll him all year long.
once he quits the comics and the pretentious, nonsensical write-Ups.
I’ll let him be
Dude.. Nothing personal but you’re a total dumbass for not working that out.As for mot, its no sweat off my back to troll him all year long.
once he quits the comics and the pretentious, nonsensical write-Ups.
I’ll let him be
It's time to move on
by cl4im3r on Feb 15, 2012 11:40 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I viewed the article without commenting.
Really? Because I see a comment from you at 7:54.
Aww man, I thought I was going to have like 3 different points to debate here, but it looks like that K-mart phone is giving you more troubles this morning, eh?
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
last attempt buddy...
Before making a comment, I had viewed the article before anyone had commented. That’s the period of time i noticed a rec.
Iets see if that does the job, you complete and utter moron.
It's time to move on
by cl4im3r on Feb 15, 2012 12:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
ohhhh, so you are saying you stay up every moment of the night in anticipation of the next Mot fanpost?
And of course if you visit a post within minutes of it being posted, there will not be any comments.
Im going to keep refreshing the main page and the next Nick Diaz article that gets posted i’m going to immediately comment “haha, no comments, no one cares about Nick”.
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
yes thats what i said mike
good day to you sir. I promise to never mistake you for the other mike who has more than an ounce of intelligence.
It's time to move on
by cl4im3r on Feb 15, 2012 12:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
ouch,. my feelings are so hurt
See you in Mot’s next thread!!!
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
Strongly disagree with the well-written debate
Good write Mot
Wrestlers have always and will always achieve in this sport and a lot has to do with the intangiables. Wrestlining mentality, work ethic and the feel of a true weight cut are skills you don’t learn in many other sports. Boxing and BJJ insists you stay as close to weight as possible, you rarely ever see a true boxer stray far from their weight class.
Jon Jones,Cain Velasquez, Chuck Liddell, Pat Miletich, Matt Hughes, Georges St.Pierre, Urijah Faber, Randy Couture, Brock Lesnar, Kevin Randleman, Dan Henderson, Dan Severn, Mark Coleman, Rashad Evans, Tito Ortiz and Quinton Jackson are all former world champions who use wrestling.
If anything i believer BJJ may be not as important and here is my argument. How many world title fights or titles were won by submission?. To be as diveresed as possible is the best skill. You need wrestling, striking and submission.
Anderson Silva may not have the best submission game or wrestling but what he does is train to defend the shoot and the submission to keep the fight on the feet. Chuck Liddell did the same thing, a good college wrestler who used his knowledge of wrestling to stiffle shoots and keep the fight standing.
If you train wrestling and know the way to sprawl then a striker can enforce their game. Bisping is another example, he doesn’t have the best wrestlking but he sure trains his ass off in wrestling so he knows how to get up.
People seem to not realize that MA is the sport, most people join a gym and learn a wide range now from the start. They don’t go from boxing to an MMA gym as much. The UFC might have started in 1993 but MMA really began when Frank Shamrock and Maurice Smith started cross training.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 8:12 AM EST reply actions
Thanks, but...
Wrestlining mentality, work ethic and the feel of a true weight cut are skills you don’t learn in many other sports.
Some bias there. Work ethic is not unique to wrestling, and you don;t need to be a wrestler to learn to cut weight.
are all former world champions who use wrestling.
That is obviously because the early UFC recruited heavily from wrestling! If most of the early UFC fighters were boxers, most of the early champions would have been boxers! This doesn’t prove anything other than an initial selection bias in favor of wrestlers.
You need wrestling, striking and submission.
That is the canard I’m trying to disprove. Judo/Jiu-Jitsu teach grappling, i.e. wrestling, as well as submissions. You don’t need two fighting arts teaching you the same thing.
On the rest, the question is simple: is there anything you learn in wrestling that you don’t learn in Judo/Jiu-Jitsu? The answer is no. The latter teach a full curriculum of ground-fighting techniques already. I’m not saying wrestling is not useful. I’m saying it is a waste of time learning wrestling in addition to say, BJJ because of the overlap and the ways BJJ is better.
The UFC doesn’t recruit, they don’t need too. The fighters are following other wrestlers. Name me every wrestler in the first UFC. The reason wrestlers flock to the UFC is the lack of competition outside of school/olympics. The UFC makes sense, i would not be surprised that Dana or Joe Silva have NEVER been to a NCAA or Olympic wrestling competition.
It’s not like they draft these guys>
If BJJ/Judo was a superior form then wrestling/bjj than why do we not see it? The proof is in the pudding.
I’m not syaing work ethic is only in wrestling but without question it requires a huge amount of what amkes a great wrestler to a good wrestler. Is it not common practice to drop lots of weight before a wrestling match? That’s why most wrestlers don’t suffer cutting wieght.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 9:12 AM EST up reply actions
The fighters are following other wrestlers. Name me every wrestler in the first UFC. The reason wrestlers flock to the UFC is the lack of competition outside of school/olympics.
Thanks for supporting my point. You are agreeing with me: the predominance of wrestlers in the UFC is due to the reasons you mentioned, not necessarily the superiority of wrestling as an art. It offered a career path for talented wrestlers. And like you say, wrestlers followed wrestlers. So your own statement contradicts the idea that wrestling is so popular because it is the most effective grappling art. it is popular because there are so many wrestlers in the UFC.
Wrestlers followed wrestlers because it worked. If Wrestler saw wrestlers getting torn apart like jokes would you join that sport?
It’s the same fucking reason boxers didn’t follow art jimmerson, it doesn’t work on itself.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 9:18 AM EST up reply actions
Wrestlers followed wrestlers because it worked.
Once again, where did I say wrestling doesn’t work? It would help if you actually addressed the points I made, rather than the ones you imagine I made, no?
So your own statement contradicts the idea that wrestling is so popular because it is the most effective grappling art. it is popular because there are so many wrestlers in the UFC.
No what i am disagreeing with you is that you are saying is popular cuz other people use it, i am saying because it has been proven to work.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 9:26 AM EST up reply actions
If wrestlers were not successful, they would not come.
just like any of the other disciplines that flock to MMA (BJJ, specifically)
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
It's hard not to be successful
When you are majority, no? Statistically speaking, if wrestlers were a numerical majority, then of course the successful fighters will be wrestlers.
But again, nowhere did I say wrestling was not effective.
Past champions who used wrestling as oppose to your judo/bjj idea
Jon Jones,Cain Velasquez, Chuck Liddell, Pat Miletich, Matt Hughes, Georges St.Pierre, Urijah Faber, Randy Couture, Brock Lesnar, Kevin Randleman, Dan Henderson, Dan Severn, Mark Coleman, Rashad Evans, Tito Ortiz and Quinton Jackson .
The reason it would be a numerical majority is because it fucking works not because it is popular or what your told to have.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 9:30 AM EST up reply actions
But you have made a point ot say it is not AS effective.
Conclusion: For the Striking Phase, Choose Judo/Jiu-Jitsu over Wrestling.
Conclusion: For the Clinch Phase, Choose Judo/Jiu-Jitsu over Wrestling.
Conclusion: For the Ground Phase, Choose Judo/Jiu-Jitsu over Wrestling.
If this were truly the case, then wrestlers would not be successful in the UFC as wrestlers would only be able to beat lesser wrestlers, which is clearly not the case.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
Judging favors the wrestlers - even when the person on the bottom is constantly attacking or threatening with subs. I agree in spirit with his fanpost even though I disagree with his wording. Wrestling is the most effective base in today's MMA.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
"If you seek truth you will not seek victory by dishonorable means, and if you find truth you will become invincible." - Epictetus
But that was not the case for all of MMA
rewatch some old Pride footage. Any time someone is in the guard, the announcers do not talk about the GnP, but the closeness to getting subbed and where the guy on the bottom was going.
MMA, in North America, certainly favors wrestling as control, when doing nothing, is given too much weight, but, and I have said this before, even in BJJ competitions, the guy on top is going to win if there is no submission as it is a dominant position.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
our beloved sport is fucked up in many ways.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
On the rest, the question is simple: is there anything you learn in wrestling that you don’t learn in Judo/Jiu-Jitsu?
yes, 100%
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
I think one of the biggest advantages wrestlers gain from years of wrestling is the art of cutting weight.
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
mot disagrees
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
thats absolutely an advantage
but im talking strictly technique-wise
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
cutting weight cutting is all mental and a good advantage.
In wrestling you’re taught to be tough and only those that really want it bad will do the weight cut as a sacrifice for success… it’s really more mental than the wreslting experience itself, like those cutting a good amount of weight will tell u, the 1st thing on their mind is the weight cut not the actual competition itself.
One of the toughest wrestlers I was ever a teammate with at jc was almost crying while trying to squeeze one off in the john to make weight and if he had any water left in his tear ducks he would have. He eventually became ranked in division 1 nationals as a senior but didnt place.
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
motmaitre...
1. Wrestling doesnt teach the same thing as BJJ they are however related
2. You are mistaken that the UFC recruited heavily from wrestling. (dead wrong about a lot)
1. I coach wrestling we have some amatuer MMA fighters there, and some BJJ guys come through there… BJJ teaches it’s ok to go to your back, wrestling teaches you to defend against takedowns and utilize takedowns/setups. In a scramble in BJ you look for submissions even off your back, wrestling looks for top control, the BJJ guys that come through our wrestling room have a hard time adapting to wrestling and most have quit. While guys that are experienced wrestlers go to BJJ and make the transition fairly easily while still clinging to their wrestling base using top control.
2. the eaarly days of wrestling were full of karate, kungfu, boxers etc… Gracie handled them all easily, I said eeeeaasily. Dan Severn showed up in UFC 4 and it became apparrent that grappling skills alone were far I said farrrrr superior to striking skills alone… Coleman showed up at UFC 10 and Couture UFC 13.. wrestlers continued to have success while all kinds of strikers and BJJ guys were getting murdered… even expert BJJ standout Belfort got dismantled by Couture via GnP. The sport evolved as standup fighters were getting smashed… smashed by GnP and submitted by BJJ… if it was (it wasnt, it just the wrestlers were working to championship status while other martial artist failed) heavily recruiting wrestlers it’s because its a simple formula that all sports wants the best athletes.. Rorion Gracie intially setup the UFC to see which was the best martial art… BJJ #1. Wrestling had no submissions but once a wrestler learned a little GnP and BJ defense it quickly evolved to #1. Eventually strikers were learning TTD and submission defense and this is when MMA came into it’s own sport.
3. BJJ for MMA is evolving in light of wrestling n GnP in MMA. I think that’s what’s happening over at nova uniao where aldo trains… I see their fighters using wrestling TTD to keep it standing or to get up off their feet, they use BJJ submissions more sparingly and when the timing is right. It is not automatic to go to their back and use submissions.
4. Wrestling is the worlds oldest sport, there’s a coaches manual dating back to 200 A.D. It is in all our high schools, the mentality of wrestling is much tougher than any other sport in high school. WORK ETHIC is at the highest standard in most wrestling rooms. You play basketball you play football you play baseball… you don’t ‘play’ wrestling. Work ethic is more demanding/grueling in wrestling than any other high school sport, just ask any multi-sport successful athlete about that.. Im sure they’ll confirm what i’m saying.
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
+ a lot
5-3, undefeated and undisputed, beat me ... if you can.
I clearly didnt learn my lesson the first time, The Pride has smashed me AGAIN. My excess estrogen has destroyed my life, I make Chaz Bono look like a real man"
Well written, I rec'd it
I also disagree with your premise when applied to MMA, but for non-competition fighting, the art that I want my daughters to learn is Krav Maga. It treaches to finish the fight by any means necessary. That usually starts with a gun and goes down the list of possible weapons to use until you are only left with your hands and feet and even then you are taught to go for the weak spots…joints, eyes, throat, etc. It is a finishing art, but obviously cannot transition to MMA in any form.
There is no way to rewrite history. Wrestling is prevelant in MMA because many of the early participants were drawn from the amateur ranks of wrestling. What you fail to note, is that the rules have been changed to effectively handcuff wrestlers from using their greatest offensive weapons while performing their art. Headbutts have been outlawed because the effetiveness of the double leg takedown, combined with the ability to finish with your 5th limb, was too effective against the other arts, so it was outlawed. See: Coleman, Mark.
The other great weapon used by wrestlers in MMA’s past is knees to the head of a grounded opponent. Considering most good double leg takedowns will end with the top participant in side control, the most effective way to end the fight from that position was to knee your opponent in the head. But, it was too effective. Because of the inability of the practitioners of the other arts to stop these takedown, or the inability to stop the knees after the takedown, these types of knees were banned in the United States because of the apparent brutality in kneeing a guy you have pinned down.
Wrestling is one of many solid bases from which to launch an MMA career, but I detest the division this argument creates amongst fans.
The best MMA practitioners in the world today all are capable of mixing more than two of the “base” arts together to be successful, and scrolling down the list of UFC champions, I do not see one fighter that would be considered a one-trick pony like the Coleman’s and Gracie’s of old. GSP combines karate, wrestling and BJJ. Bones combines Greco-roman wrestling, BJJ and Muay Thai. Anderson Silva combines BJJ, Muay Thai and Capoeira. All are wonderful to behold.
Our sport is still emerging after only a few short years and is constantly being developed and refined into mixing the best techniques, from the individual disciplines, into a competition sport that is beaty to behold when performed at the highest level.
Why do we have to be divided?
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
Honestly not to kiss, my favorite comment.

"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks. However...
Wrestling is prevelant in MMA because many of the early participants were drawn from the amateur ranks of wrestling.
Thank you. That is one of my key points. Its prevalence is not because it is inherently superior to Judo/Jiu-Jitsu.
the rules have been changed to effectively handcuff wrestlers from using their greatest offensive weapons while performing their art.
This is true of ALL martial arts, as I said in my fifth paragraph. Early Muay Thai for example, also used headbutts. All fighting arts have techniques that would be deadly on the street but not allowed in competition. Traditional Judo involved deadly attacks to all the vulnerable areas of the body. It became severely watered-down by competition rules.
Why do we have to be divided?
I also think that with time, the distinctions among the legacy martial arts will slowly disappear, and we will go back to what the original martial arts all were: complete, integrated fighting systems. However today, we still have specialists in Wrestling, Boxing, BJJ, etc. And the common wisdom is that if you want to fight MMA you have to get a striking coach, a BJJ coach and a wrestling coach. I’m just arguing that you only need two of those, so save yourself some time and money.
judo/jj regardless of their inherent historical links are vastly different now. You sound like wrestling isn’t more dominant yet we have had more champions with wrestling than judo champions.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 9:38 AM EST up reply actions
Surely you can see the statistical link?
I thought we already discussed this? If wrestlers are prevalent in the UFC as you have admitted, then statistically speaking, of course most of the successful fighters (and unsuccessful ones too, btw) will be wrestlers. It’s just mathematics.
As for Judo champions, obviously there have been much fewer Judoka in MMA than wrestlers, so again statistically most champions cannot have been Judoka. Math again.
However, this is changing as more Judoka enter MMA. Never mind the fact that BJJ has already proved itself over and again in MMA (and no, Judo and JJ are not vastly different. They are still virtually identical). Wait till Ronda Rousey takes Miesha Tate out to dry, and then it will finally begin to sink in that BJJ/Judo is a better investment of a fighter’s training time than wrestling.
I’m saying that way it is used. Rousey also has very nice nage-waza no doubt. She herself admits that many of the judokas she trains with have little to no idea of submissions, the sport has changed. Her knowledge of submissions is what sets her apart in women’s mma not her takedown offense
Manny Gamburyan and Karo Parisyan have found little success in MA and they have juo/bjj backgrounds. Karo himself enlisted Tito and Couture ebcause wrestling is best served in the octagon.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
both manny and karo are not olympic level judoka..
So what they have done is just the tip of the iceberg.
Rousey… her judokas she trains with have no knowledge of submissions… ummm who does she train with the kids class…
People start learning submissions at green belt generally. thats after a year or so …. depending on the club. every club always has someone who loves newaza… Or atleast thats what its like where I am from.
I would love to see Mark Huizinga do MMA.
.
As for Judo champions, obviously there have been much fewer Judoka in MMA than wrestlers, so again statistically most champions cannot have been Judoka. Math again.
Have there been any champions where Judo was their primary base? Statistically, there should have been by now.
Wait till Ronda Rousey takes Miesha Tate out to dry, and then it will finally begin to sink in that BJJ/Judo is a better investment of a fighter’s training time than wrestling.
So a girl with 5 wins is going to change the entire landscape of the sport by beating a smaller wrestler?
Man, sometimes I think you really are Snowden for the things you say.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
It would surpise me at this rate, maybe snowden n that guy who was cut over Helwani-BE gate.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 9:57 AM EST up reply actions
The influence of individual martial arts in MMA has definitely been driven by their success in the cage. Isn’t this why BJJ is popular? And Tate has herself framed her fight with Rousey as Wrestling vs. Judo.
For this reason, and because Ronda is so dependent on her Judo skills, her victory will be a showcase for Judo rather than general MMA. This cannot but be influential.
Ronda never said it was so mute point and as soon as one uses a non-wrestling or judo move it ends the argument. If i see a hook or a knee then it’s MMA.
War Ronda.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
and no, Judo and JJ are not vastly different. They are still virtually identical)
everything you say on this topic shows how uneducated and ignorant you are
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
magicmike dropping knowledge!
Even Ronda Rousey who is the most accomplished judoka in MMA says that the people she trains with have little to no knowledge of submissions.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
our tale of the tape: one has one J, one has 2,
and everything else, is virtually identical!!!!
by lordrubbish on Feb 15, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
only need 2? See Silva/Sonnen without the sub
"ever heard of a tune up? tee hee hee hee
"ah hee hee hee ever heard of a ritual killing? tee hee hee hee"
"i dont get it"
"you gnaw on her face in public like that again and you'll be one tee hee hee hee"
People train MMA now, you can’t take one degree any one degree or knowledge of one degree and enforce your game. Even the best wrestlers train stand up and work on their ground game.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 9:42 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed that the deadly attacks have been removed (obviously)
but the difference is that competition MMA rules were changed to limit the effectiveness of a particular legacy martial art (I love that term, btw, and will steal it henceforth) because of the effectiveness. That is a big difference from what you are saying.
It is akin to a Muay Thai striker not being able to use their elbows in close distance, or BJJ practitioners to not be able to use leg chokes after realizing the effectiveness swayed the rules to one discipline. If you don’t like my particular examples, use your own, they were only used to illustrate a point. The only comparable striking example I can think of that actually happened was the 12 to 6 elbows.
My underlying point is that writing an article to say wrestling is inferior is only dividing fans. Who knows, maybe that was your point.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
scrolling down the list of UFC champions, I do not see one fighter that would be considered a one-trick pony
I still consider JDS to be primarily a boxer.
Sure he has wrestling and BJJ, but I have yet to see him utilize these skills. Sure he stopped a couple takedown attempts, but that doesn’t make him a wrestler. He trains TDD to keep the fight standing to use his boxing.
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed and thus this makes him a smart one trick pony. He simply learned the skills to dictate what he wnats to do. Anderson Silva and Chuck Liddell, elite strikers who use wrestling and bjj to defend more than to apply.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
agreed but that was due to him being better at bjj. He’d more then likely never want to be under a sweaty sexy hulking testosterone abusing beast ;)
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
but that was due to him being better at bjj
Or because like I said, BJJ teaches submissions but wrestling does not?
you’re arguing judo/bjj is better is better than wrestling but what if the wrestler had better defense or in the Hendo case didn’t gas after round 1.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
Every current MMA Gym I have ever seen now teaches offensive wrestling with submissions.
While pure wrestling may not teach submissions the current forms of MMA wrestling does.
It just makes wrestling even more the best base.
Like everything else once wrestling was proven in MMA it had to adapt some to continue its dominance.
More like adapting to the needs of the sport.
I have also seen JJ classes that teach wrestling takedowns. WHAT? NO WAY!
You need to get a grip and stop being completely full of yourself. Wrestling is not stealing submissions from JJ. They are using them because it furthers their knowledge. I am sure MMA wrestlers would create their own submissions if there were any left out there to discover. I am sure they could rename an armbar but it seems like such a good name for what it is.
Let’s say you pull guard and a wrestler has jj skills and gets back up how does your judo help?
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
Which was shown to be proven?
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
Yes
My post was to prove that it is better to learn Judo/JJ because it teaches a wider range of skills than wrestling. By admitting that ‘pure wrestling may not teach submissions’ and saying that wrestling coaches are adopting submissions from JJ, he has proved my point for me.
so why not just do wrestling and jui jitsu?
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
Because everything in wrestling is in Jiu-Jitsu
But not everything in Jiu-Jitsu is in wrestling. So why waste time learning two arts when I can achieve the same thing my learning the more complete one?
Efficiency.
is there a double leg in JJ?
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
Not that I know of
Because it is inefficient and contrary to the central principle of Judo/JJ, which is minimum effort, maximum effect.
When I say everything, I don’t mean every technique- I mean every general skill: takedowns, chokes, locks, submissions.
I can think of lots of JJ players
that a good double could help immensely in MMA
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Imagine AS with better wrestling takedown defense not judo takedown defense.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
see Jose Aldo
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
I can think of many wrestlers
Who would be less gassed in the Octagon if they didn’t waste so much energy lifting their opponents off the ground every time they wanted to do a takedown.
Hook the foot, push slightly- and voila, he falls to the ground. A woman could take down Brock Lesnar with the right Judo technique- or as I showed in my gif, Ronda could take down Nick Diaz.
disagree
there would be less wrestlers gassing if they didn’t cut so much weight and changed up their workouts. But that’s another topic for another thread.
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
Not every TD has to be up in the air
that’s contrary to the taught principle much of the time.
Yea, because a Heel-Tap is so “voila” easy.
You had a decent (common) principle, then you strayed off into territory you don’t fully grasp.
and it showed.
You have been banned from Bloody Elbow.
I don’t know what you said, but I don’t like you.
12/22/11
"You actually got banned 3 times in 2 minutes by 3 different people"
by *Californication* on Feb 15, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
One of my wrestling coaches was a little old dude (maybe 135lbs and 60 years old) and would get me with an ankle pick everytime. He was so fast and sneaky with it. It was amazing. Saying wrestling is just brute strength is contrary to everything I was taught when I wrestled.
Myth: Three Americans die every year from rabies. Fact: Four Americans die every year die from rabies.
He really seems to think that every double takes you picking up your opponent and slamming them as well.
5 point throws are not the norm in wrestling tournys…but when they happen they look like the most effortless and efficient throw you’ve ever seen. It’s all about efficiency, setup, misdirection and using their own body against them.
Myth: Three Americans die every year from rabies. Fact: Four Americans die every year die from rabies.
If it was the more complete then why are we not seeing a trend in coaching or by more elite fighters than you or I?
It’s easy to look from the outside than it is to apply.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
Mot, catch wrestling..wrestlinga nd subs.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submission_wrestling
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Game Over, i don’t even know why i didn’t bring this up since i’ve learned a shitload off Erik Paulson dvds and my few stroddles into his gym
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
I specifically
Focused on Greco-Roman, Freestyle and Collegiate wrestling in my post, because these are the feeder sports for most MMA fighters. I know full well about submission grappling, catch wrestling, etc. But the UFC wrestlers generally don;t come from those backgrounds.
the point is that not one grappling discipline is greater than another
they all have their individual strengths and weaknesses. In MMA, the fighter who can most successfully combine the most effective parts of all disciplines will win most of the time. This isn’t 1993 when we have to pit one martial art against the rest.
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
You won Shivan
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
did he wax him?
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
![]()
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
you mad?
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you for admitting your purpose here.
It is hard for me to relegate Mot the troll, with Mot the guy who really is intelligent.
I am glad you pointed it out for me.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
If you've read any of his past posts
it shouldn’t be too hard.
Seriously.
He takes a topic, flashes it up and takes cues from Snowden.
Drew jumps on it without realizing and claims it as fresh air. It’s not. It’s stale stir pieces from years past.
You have been banned from Bloody Elbow.
I don’t know what you said, but I don’t like you.
12/22/11
"You actually got banned 3 times in 2 minutes by 3 different people"
by *Californication* on Feb 15, 2012 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
and yet everyone gets in a uproar over them?
MOT does have some interesting idea’s and what I appreciate is that even when I disagree with him I find myself reconsidering and redefining my own beliefs in the sport. I can’t say that about 95% of the other fan posts on this site.
And it hurts to read Ulf refer to me as shallow : (
I don't mind stealing bread from the mouths of decadence...
by DetroitDrew1980 on Feb 15, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
LOL
You should be proud that my lone insult in this thread is directed towards you and not Mot. You have lead me by example and for that i am thankful.
but it doesn’t change why you did it, shallow man when looking at Mot. ;)
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
you're running in circles
first you say you’re analyzing styles for styles, objectively, then the majority of your points about what is popular in mma and what the majority of ufc fighters are practicing. if you want to be able to show that wrestling is redundant, you need to understand what wrestling is. if you want to show that it isn’t practical as it is actually used, which is what you’re actually coming closer to doing, then you analyze individual fighters and the landscape of mma and ufc. you claim you’re doing the former, but your points are geared towards the latter. you’re lost somewhere in the middle.
by lordrubbish on Feb 15, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
It’s funy how wrestling got made redundant when the first event was dominated by submission grapplers.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
this prose is just so tragically confused
in method and in actual content
he keeps saying you’re not arguing against the points i made, but it’s because there’s so much wrong!
by lordrubbish on Feb 15, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
You didn’t focus on Greco, you only mentioned it. Had you, you would have talked about it’s efficient upperbody throws. It’s not just a series of suplexes.
Myth: Three Americans die every year from rabies. Fact: Four Americans die every year die from rabies.
I don’t see many of those in MMA. I’m debating the reality of what happens today, not the theoretical repertoire of techniques in every art. I’m sure if you go back far enough, you’ll discover that traditional boxing had sweeps, takedowns and choke holds.
No.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
You don’t see many bodylock takedowns today??? Do you watch MMA? Those throws you talk about in Judo are used in Greco.
Myth: Three Americans die every year from rabies. Fact: Four Americans die every year die from rabies.
Now we're being very general
You mentioned efficient upper body throws. That is what I don’t see. I see lots of inefficient upper body throws, involving lifting and flinging your opponent. Which is the point of the whole post.
mot whats happened to you?
your comics are singlehandedly the best thing to ever come out of mania but this post really lets you down!
"ever heard of a tune up? tee hee hee hee
"ah hee hee hee ever heard of a ritual killing? tee hee hee hee"
"i dont get it"
"you gnaw on her face in public like that again and you'll be one tee hee hee hee"
Mot
just like pure JJ or Judo should be modified for MMA, so should pure wrestling. the difference is, the way the fights are scored a pure wrestler has a better chance of riding out a victory with only his wrestling skills.
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
The judging is a disgrace
However, even with that, I could counter your argument and say that a JJ practitioner has a greater chance of winning by submission than a wrestler.
Sonnen dominated Anderson Silva- but who won in the end, and how?
yes a great JJ beat a bad JJ player but did Judo play any role? no, it was Sonnen who took him down and got into his guard.
It wasn’t JJ beating Wrestler it was a better JJplayer beating a lesser talented JJ player.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
It wasn’t JJ beating Wrestler it was a better JJplayer beating a lesser talented JJ player.
Actually, it was both.
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
So Sonnen beat him standing does that mean Sonnen is the better striker?
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
Where is this comment coming from?
Did you reply to the wrong person?
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
You said by AS subbing sonnen that it was JJ beating a wrestler and a lesser talented jj player no?
According to fight metric and knockdowns sonnen is the better striker
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
AS subbing Chael was a BJJ guy subbing a wrestling guy
And AS subbing Chael was a greater skilled BJJ guy subbing a lesser skilled BJJ guy.
And I’m not using 22 minutes for the basis of my analysis. I am using their entire careers.
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
that's fine
I don’t see pulling guard or butt scooting in any Collegiate wrestling programs either
Can we just agree that the best way to compete at a high level in MMA is to be well rounded. There is no exact formula, every fighter is different, what works well for fighter A, may not suit fighter B.
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
Silva air mailed that sub
if Sonnen wasn’t stupid about it, that sub doesn’t happen.
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
how do you submit someone handily?
you either submit them or you dont
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
Maia over Sonnen was done handily
As usually takes some abuse before he gets the sub
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
I’d say Jones submitted Machida handily
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
Yes.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
"If you seek truth you will not seek victory by dishonorable means, and if you find truth you will become invincible." - Epictetus
My girl turned me, jaw open and was like ‘wow’. It was a beautiful look at MA, wish i had that still. Havent had my jaw drop since Anderson’s ko of Belfort or Barry-Kongo but i was laughing the whole time as it was crazy..bat shit crazy
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah - that was a graceful looking sub.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
"If you seek truth you will not seek victory by dishonorable means, and if you find truth you will become invincible." - Epictetus
my point was that you can beat someone handily
and then finish with a sub, or a TKO, or win a lopsided decision…idk, i guess its just the word to me – i feel like if you submit me, you submitted me, you didnt do it handily, though you might have beaten me handily to get to that point…just my take on the word i guess
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
we were being assholes, clearly.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
Palhares and his recent streak of leg lock subs? He makes it seem so easy...
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
"If you seek truth you will not seek victory by dishonorable means, and if you find truth you will become invincible." - Epictetus
I agree
fitting that the shallowest weight-class in MMA has the least rounded champion. Although from all reports JDS is good ont he mats, but no one seems to be able to get him there.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
he is primarily a boxer
as was chuck, but the way the both of them use(d) their TDD to keep the fights standing so they could employ their strength makes them NOT a one trick pony…its not somebody like robbie lawler, whos a great kickboxer, but you can take him down pretty easily and once hes down there hes screwed
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
Offensively, he is one dimensional
I mean, if Alberto Crane puts his hands in front of his face and blocks an overhand right does that make him a world class striker and well rounded?
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
i didnt say that
youre reaching here…would chuck or JDS be effective if you could take them down at will? no, absolutely not…offensively, yes, theyre one dimensional; they dont try to take you down, only clinch when tired/hurt, incorporate kicks occasionally, etc. but without theyre TDD, they wouldnt be as successful as they are/were
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
amen brother...
some fans just don’t get wrestling… simply do not understand it’s place in the sport… anyway you are right… BJJ is not wrestling and Wrestling is not BJJ… however there is MMA/wrestling/BJJ/Striking that is modified for the sport. Wrestling is a sport of its own and so is BJJ and so is MMA
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
We're nearing a new era in MMA.
The revolution in MMA begun when Segal brought in his 40+ years of martial arts knowledge. The master of aikido has already made a big impact, teaching the likes of Anderson and Machida the fine art. You can’t deny that, look at the results, the next level is here. If wrestling truly was the best base, there would be more champions. The sport is slowly evolving and the one dimensioanl wrestler is almost extinct.
Bobby Southworth
You cannot be a one dimensional champion since UFC 4 lol. Matt Hughes could have out grappled Royce n jj at UFC 60
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
It wasn’t long ago we had a one-dimensional LHW champ in Rashad Evans. Look what happened when he fought a master in Machida, he got slaughtered. The sport is slowly evolving, Seagal has rocked the MMA world.
Bobby Southworth
Rashad wasn’t one dimensional, he was a wrestler who found success at strikinga nd assumed he was quicker and better at striking than Machida and it cost him…dearly
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
He was a fish out of water. By MMA standards Rashads hands were considered fast, MMA fast does not equal Machida fast. The level of Aikido Machida operates at was too much for the one-dimensional Wrestler to comprehend. That’s what happens when you go up against a man who has been striking since he was 2, that’s what happens when you fight a master.
Bobby Southworth
What is your take on that master being dumped like a sack of potatoes after getting choked the fuck out
by a guy who has only been fighting for 4 years?
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
It means he has superior physical tools.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
"If you seek truth you will not seek victory by dishonorable means, and if you find truth you will become invincible." - Epictetus
It means he has superior physical tools steroids.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
You should log into one of your other lame accounts when making a comment so lame
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
or a one dimensional striker like Shogun?
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
one-dimensional LHW champ in Rashad Evans
Shogun is a one dimensional muay thai striker, he fucked up Machida. Evans is a one dimensional wrestler? no he is a wrestler with striking but Machida fucked him up.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
I think you will find Shogun is a multifaceted striker, a master in his discipline, one in a lifetime fighter, similar to Machida. I’m sure Rashad is a great Wrestler, but that martial art is ineffective compared to MT/Karate.
Machidas ability to defend a takedown comes from his background in karate. His lateral movement, jumping in and out of strikes and snapping kicks make it hard for any wrestler to take him down. Karate > Wrestling.
Bobby Southworth
Rampage and Jon Jones disagree.
Though Machida really is the exception to most common knowledge of MMA % what wroks.
Machida also trains with very good wrestlers through blackhouse.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
Wrestling is dated, just accept it. Karate is far superior, not only does it teach takedowns, it teaches striking. It’s the perfect base for MMA.
Like I said, MMA is slowly evolving. Once Shotokan Karate masters make the transition, wrestling will be extinct. It was always going to happen. The new Era is upon us.
Bobby Southworth
Karate > Wrestling.
Bones disagrees…
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
NU UH you see that flurry? That fucking proved it son. Jones had to resort to his MT. TUF Noob
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
how can shogun be such a master?
he never trained with seagal…plus, didnt you disown him after he lost to bones?
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
every martial art > karate
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
na, not really
hes developed into more traditional kickboxing with his striking, plus is the best wrestler in MMA…so actually, GSP does disagree, it just happens to be with your post
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
Then why did he train so hard at wrestling and hasn’t been to a Karate class since?
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
Oh i forgot his wrestling hasn’t won him his goals and his jab that he learned from a boxing coach.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
You're still swatting a straw man, LSC
Do you still not get what the post was about, or is it just more fun to argue that wrestling is effective (even though I never said it wasn’t)?
You say it is redundant. I argue saying that Judo/BJJ is more useful is incorrect. How do i know this by the magnitude of wrestlers in MA and the lack of successful Judokas.
re·dun·dant/riˈdəndənt/Adjective: 1.No longer needed or useful; superfluous.
2.(of words or data) Able to be omitted without loss of meaning or function.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
GSP also has some of the most effective takedowns in mma
yet, he primarily uses useless, redundant, obselete wrestling techniques. interesting…
by lordrubbish on Feb 15, 2012 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah those techniques that are stupid and hold no merit when you can do a hybrid at judo/jj.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
Perhaps that’s why he spends so much time on gymnastics and strength training. He loves double takedowns, and they require so much energy and strength. If he did more Judo throws instead, his takedowns would be even more effective- and efficient.
If he thought judo was better he would do judo. Heck even Karo gave up on judo and used pills.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with lsc. Georges would not only use them but what about greg jackson, would he not recommend that georges uses superior techniques? He’s all about efficiency when it comes to georges and so is georges himself.
by MrGrapplefan on Feb 16, 2012 7:23 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Al Bundy from Polk High would sub Segal like a bitch, the bitch segal is.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
LOL
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
Sport competition allows for a safe and controlled venue to develop and advance your skillset
1. To be a jack of all trades and a master of none: The best wrestlers, BJJ competitors, and boxers all have one thing in common: they are completely dedicated to their repsective discipline. Please recognize the complexity of each individual sport and the need for one to dedicate his or focus in entirety in order to climb the ranks of one discipline. MMA is the exception and the exception is clearly evident in its title: MIXED. GSP will never be the best wrestler in the world or the best striker in the world or with the Mundials. However, he has demonstrated the most effective application of divided attention or divided focus. Make sense….? This is why we go to experts in each practice. As Adam Smith so clearly articulated in the wealth of Nations, SPECIALIZATION is absolutely relevant (albeit, not everything…). So, I will chose to learn BJJ from specialists and not water downed Jack of all’s. similarly, this weekend, i will attend an intensive Canada Games Wrestlign seminar taught by expert specialists
2. I apologize for being so bold but your comments about wrestling lead me to believe that you have never seriously committed yourself to becoming an expert MIXED martial artist. Nor have I. But being part of a gym that teaches BJJ separately, Muay Thai separately, wrestling separately and then MIXES them I can see how ABSOLUTELY relevant and superior in many specialized ways that wrestling is a sport and a component of MMA.
personal examlpe. I have a purple belt in BJJ. i compete and win some and lose some. I train with guys who win ALOT. But when I went to an ALL wrestling class recently I got beat up! Of ocurse, this is a personal example and not a rule but having the safety net of being able to fight off my back in BJJ or turlte in Judo did not prepare me for the all or nothing mentality of a wrestling SPECIALIST bent on one thing and one thing only: the pin. Talk about tenacity!!!
Indeed, wrestling is more than just a pin though: it is a mental and physical grind like nothing I have experienced in the BJJ ‘flow with the go era’….
3. As for Krav Maga – I think its awesome!!! I have studied it a little bit and loveits relevance. BUT, I think its easy to lose interest in self defense that is ALL KILL and no sport. Its hard to compete under those circumstances. Unlike kickboxing which incorporates padded gloves and competition, you dont have the luxury in Krav Maga to test yourself or get ranked or go on road trips with the team…no what I mean? I also believe – could be really wrong – that a boxer – after years of having fun honing his striking / desterity . reaction / movement etc- can quickly transfer to be a superior krav Maga fighter whereas the opposite is not true for a reason….
anyhow I appreciate your article – nice discussion – love the legacy martial art term too! thanks
by techNACITY BJJ on Feb 15, 2012 10:23 AM EST reply actions
Thanks.
I think if you’re competing with a wrestler under wrestling rules to achieve the wrestler’s focused objective (the pin), it’s not surprising the wrestler won. Would he be so successful against you under MMA rules?
Also, your description of wrestling as an intense mental and physical grind compared to the more relaxed nature of BJJ again reinforces my point. Wrestling relies on brute strength and athleticism- basically being stronger than your opponent. Jiu-Jitsu/Judo rely on being more skilled than your opponent. The path of least resistance, the shortest distance between two points. Seems more efficient to me. Less effort, same result.
Mot, i assume you are not a very physically strong guy?
I also think you are Eddie Bravo.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
I'm Like Gary Condit
Brains first, brawn second.
A strong guy that fights smart is better than a strong guy that fights stupid.
whos Gary Condit? lol
"ever heard of a tune up? tee hee hee hee
"ah hee hee hee ever heard of a ritual killing? tee hee hee hee"
"i dont get it"
"you gnaw on her face in public like that again and you'll be one tee hee hee hee"
I really have a kink in my brain
Every time I want to say Carlos Condit, I say Gary Condit.
For some reason, this douchebag politician has occupied my brain.
motmaitre mistaken again n again...
wrestling does not rely soley on brute strength there is a lot of skill involved i mean lots that’s why the wrestlers that start at the youngest age are usually the best… u just don’t see it because you don’t understand it… the postioning on your feet, the setups, looking for that weakness in your opponents stance while he’s looking at yours all the hours of sprawling and defending in many different ways. The agility and practice of many different types of takedowns, what it takes to actually get a guy on his back that doesnt want to go there and the leverage used… u don’t get it. BJ is not more efficent when the wrestler on top is using GnP and the guy on bottom is unsuccesfully looking for submissions as they are being thwarted by top control and punches and elbows. Less effort gives worse results… if that’s the mentality of BJJ guys and Judo guys no wonder wrestlers are smashing them in MMA.
Now lets go to Judo… in my opinion greco roman wrestling is basically judo without the gi. Wrestling is the older sport and judo took a lot from wrestling and a judo gi to make it their own.
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"





I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
stick with the poop gifs
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 15, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
that dog tail pull n poop made me LOL
The sesame street po op made me chuckle as well.
"with a good physique and explosiveness anybody can perform a takedown"
-RoBerto
by Lesnar's striking coach on Feb 15, 2012 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
I promised no more poop gifs, never said anything about piss gifs though

I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
to say that all wrestling is is singles doubles and suplexes
just shows that you don’t know what wrestling is about. not all wrestling moves are power moves. there are plenty of leg takedowns, low single being one example, that don’t require a lot of strength and don’t require you to lift your opponent. there’s also plenty of upper body throws used in wrestling, like judo, that use your opponents moments instead of your own brute strength.
aside from takedowns, wrestling teaches you how to get back to your feet, how to escape positions, and how to maintain control on the ground. jiu jitsu doesn’t teach how to get takedowns nearly as well and judo is not the same thing as jiu jitsu so no you can’t lump them together. jiu jitsu fighters are content to fight off their back, and some even prefer it. in mma, that is often a losing battle because most judges won’t even score a sub attempt if the guy is on his back (see torres vs. mighty mouse)
in addition, the reason you might think that leg takedowns aren’t as effective is because everyone in the ufc trains for them now. the best ground fighters are guys who can use both upper body and lower body attacks, as with the best strikers. there’s absolutely no reason why wrestling useless. just like any discipline, it alone isn’t enough and it is best used when combined with others, but it is supremely useful, especially if implemented properly.
to say there there is overlap and to say that one contains all the elements of the other
but not the other way around, is contradictory. imagine a ven diagram: park of circle A overlaps with circle B, but each have their independent sections.
wrestling and judo do overlap (again jiu jitsu is seperate and can be streamlined with either), but each have their own emphasis and technique. both are effective. fighters should use both.
by lordrubbish on Feb 15, 2012 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
wrestling is the oldest sport
judo is greco roman wrestling with a gi… they took a lot from wrestling and added in a judo gi to make it their own sport…
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
to say that all wrestling is is singles doubles and suplexes
Where did I say that? What I said was:
In MMA, the three most popular takedowns taught by Wrestling
If you have to keep arguing against points I didn’t make, that reassures me that the points I did make are solid.
i'm arguing against the premise of your post
that wrestling is redundant and can be completely replaceable by solely training some hydbrid of bjj/ judo. objection no. 1: bjj and judo are seperate disciplines, NOT virtually identical despite overlaps. bjj can be streamlined with judo or wrestling equally, depending on whether you use a gi or not.
objection. 2: you say that judo and wrestling overlap, but your main point is that everything that is contained in wrestling is also contained in judo, and thensome. those two statements contradict (see ven diagram analogy).
and your point that the most “popular” takedowns in mma from the wrestling discipline are doubles singles and suplexes is erroneous and useless to your central pt. again, upper body throws are also popular and are also taught in wrestling. you’re trying to show that wrestling techniques are redundant, but all you’ve managed to focus on is the aspects of wrestling that you’re used to seeing because you don’t know what wrestling teaches.
by lordrubbish on Feb 15, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
I think your idea of what wrestling is, is way off. It’s not just singles, doubles and suplexes. There are plently of upper body throws, just like the ones you showed in your judo gifs. Infact, Greco does not allow you to touch the legs, and consists of upper body throws and body locks. The amount of skill it takes to bait someone into a wrestling takedown, just like in judo, should not be underestimated…it is not just brute strength at all. Everyone I ever knew who just had brute strength takedowns in wrestling got schooled by the talented wrestlers.
How many JJ guys have we seen come into MMA with horrible takedown skills. Sure, they may be able to submit dudes, but a lot of them have had difficulty getting the fight to the ground. This is where I think wrestling trumps the other mentioned sports. Shooting from a distance effectively seems to favour wrestling, combined with the in close takedown skills as exemplified Greco, illustrates it’s usefulness and neccessity in MMA.
Myth: Three Americans die every year from rabies. Fact: Four Americans die every year die from rabies.
It’s not just singles, doubles and suplexes.
I never said it was. I said those are the wrestling techniques most often taught and used in MMA.
There are plently of upper body throws, just like the ones you showed in your judo gifs.
lot of them have had difficulty getting the fight to the ground. This is where I think wrestling trumps the other mentioned sports.
I don’t think it’s fair to compare a poor BJJ fighter with a skilled wrestler. You have to look at the styles as styles. And doing that, you can’t disagree that BJJ/Judo teach more skills (chokes, submissions) than wrestling. On the question of takedowns, we can agree to disagree. In MMA, I see a whole lot of double takedowns, which are much less efficient than skillful judo throws.
I also said that there is considerable overlap between both.
you can’t disagree that BJJ/Judo teach more skills
different skills, not more. And once transferred into MMA, the skills taught and emphasized change, not just in wrestling, but throughout all the disciplines.
I see a whole lot of double takedowns, which are much less efficient than skillful judo throws.
they are not less efficient in MMA, more often than not a failed Judo throw leads to a bad position, where as a failed double or single, just leads to a standing reset by the fighter.
I promise not to post anymore fat chick or poop gifs.
Im extremely sensitive. The pussy kind of sensitive where I cry like twice a day. I love Cruz Jackson and am honored to be a part of his winning record. I’m his new bitch, step aside Stallion I got that dick now.
Sig bet record 2-6*
by ShivanTiger on Feb 15, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
Those may be the ones you notice the most, but others are used plenty. Body locks and trips are seen on every card, so are switches, front head locks, drag/snap downs, head and arm throws, and arm triangles and guillotines.
As far as poor takedowns from BJJ fighter’s, MMA have had many world class ones with poor takedowns. We can agree that there is a lot of overlap, but you seem to attribute the skillful throws and techniques to Judo/BJJ and not to wrestling, even though they are taught in wrestling as well. This just illustrates your bias. Wrestling is all about efficiency.
Myth: Three Americans die every year from rabies. Fact: Four Americans die every year die from rabies.
you are such a fucking care bear
I live in America! Land of the coward, home of the slave. Watch that TV, go to that football game, that circus, CNN, MSNBC, FOX and other mainstream media are not owned by large corporations, they are always honest and fair and they never lie to you. Whatever you do don't read history books, don't study the constitution, do everything you can possibly do to be happy in life. Just don't ever get involved in your government, big brother will take care of you. Your elected officials always do what's in your best interest, there is no corruption in our government, good little sheep, just make yourself happy, just entertain yourself, the government is only here to entertain you and take care of you and feed you and make you happy, don't you worry your little head over world affairs.
by O damn he got caught on Feb 15, 2012 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
wrestling is the worlds oldest sport
Mot has zero concept of wrestling… judo is a derivative of greco roman wrestling with a gi.
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
AttaboyAK
You have been banned from Bloody Elbow.
I don’t know what you said, but I don’t like you.
12/22/11
"You actually got banned 3 times in 2 minutes by 3 different people"
by *Californication* on Feb 15, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Man, Mot is a single largest producer of garbage on Mania
Even tho I initially acted like a small child, I have been forced to come to my senses. enzo-enormous is better at calling fights than I am, by far. I am a little immature but am working on it. Also, I love dudes and cant wait to get a reach around from the 209
On this we can agree
I live in America! Land of the coward, home of the slave. Watch that TV, go to that football game, that circus, CNN, MSNBC, FOX and other mainstream media are not owned by large corporations, they are always honest and fair and they never lie to you. Whatever you do don't read history books, don't study the constitution, do everything you can possibly do to be happy in life. Just don't ever get involved in your government, big brother will take care of you. Your elected officials always do what's in your best interest, there is no corruption in our government, good little sheep, just make yourself happy, just entertain yourself, the government is only here to entertain you and take care of you and feed you and make you happy, don't you worry your little head over world affairs.
by O damn he got caught on Feb 15, 2012 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
I enjoy your posts.
They are always well thought out with solid arguments and good punctuation. I also like the occasional humor thrown in as well.
I agree with your opinion on wrestling; it has it’s values, but lacks the efficiency and real-world application of other disciplines.
I also like the statement made that all fighting arts have techniques that would be deadly on the street but are not allowed in competition. Well said.
by The Mountain That Rides on Feb 15, 2012 2:39 PM EST reply actions
are u mots little brother?
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
IMO u need to master one of the 2 main bases and be at least decent at the other to be a great MMA fighter
Take Chuck Liddell for example dynamite wrestling with excellent kickboxing. Did he have BJJ? Likely, but he didnt need it. How about Matt Hughes, Top notch wrestling and submissions. Anderson Silva is the same, decent wrestler with AWESOME kick boxing and BJJ
Pro Sig record:14-6
1 Month sig bet with 10th Degree Whitebelt that DJ does NOT win the FLW tournament
Sig bet with KaleJohnCox on Alves-Kamp. ALVES
2 month Sig/Pic bet with theoregonduck on Poirier-Zombie. POIRIER
I prefer to agree with history that i've seen and JKD/sometimes MMA philosophy
It’s the artist and not the art and there will be techniques from wrestling that will work and should be used by some fighters. I think it’s especially true in the sport of MMA. The other comments by mania peeps are excellent, so no need to repeat them.
5-2, undefeated and undisputed, beat me ... if you can.
On Fuel = Ellenburger DEC, Herman KO2, Simpson DEC, Menjivar TKO1, Miocic KO2, Dillashaw DEC, Brookins DEC, Loeffler DEC, Kuivanen SUB3, Magalhaes DEC
+1
Take what works and discard the rest.
I live in America! Land of the coward, home of the slave. Watch that TV, go to that football game, that circus, CNN, MSNBC, FOX and other mainstream media are not owned by large corporations, they are always honest and fair and they never lie to you. Whatever you do don't read history books, don't study the constitution, do everything you can possibly do to be happy in life. Just don't ever get involved in your government, big brother will take care of you. Your elected officials always do what's in your best interest, there is no corruption in our government, good little sheep, just make yourself happy, just entertain yourself, the government is only here to entertain you and take care of you and feed you and make you happy, don't you worry your little head over world affairs.
by O damn he got caught on Feb 15, 2012 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
if I made a fanpost as delusional as this I hope someone would bludgeon me with a table leg
by William Thackeray on Feb 15, 2012 5:15 PM EST reply actions
I got your back.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. - Herm Albright
World Peace!
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
Let's go Giants!!! clap clap clap-clap-clap
by ViolentMike on Feb 16, 2012 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
Mot you're retarded
This is like some throwback to the days where NHB was “style vs style” instead of being “Mixed Martial Arts”. Instead of discrediting a style and saying it’s outdated or obsolete maybe you should look at what techniques within that style work and which don’t.
I live in America! Land of the coward, home of the slave. Watch that TV, go to that football game, that circus, CNN, MSNBC, FOX and other mainstream media are not owned by large corporations, they are always honest and fair and they never lie to you. Whatever you do don't read history books, don't study the constitution, do everything you can possibly do to be happy in life. Just don't ever get involved in your government, big brother will take care of you. Your elected officials always do what's in your best interest, there is no corruption in our government, good little sheep, just make yourself happy, just entertain yourself, the government is only here to entertain you and take care of you and feed you and make you happy, don't you worry your little head over world affairs.
by O damn he got caught on Feb 15, 2012 5:29 PM EST reply actions
Did you actually read the post?
The problem with the Suplex, Single-leg and Double-leg takedowns however, is two fold. First, they are extremely inefficient ways to take down your opponent. Spectacular takedowns are favored in Wrestling, because points are scored for ‘amplitude’. This means that the higher you can throw your opponent, the better. However, this requires a prodigious amount of energy to execute. Suplexes and leg takedowns involve physically lifting your opponent like a sack of potatoes. This wastes much more energy than is strictly necessary, and favors strong, athletic attackers.
Secondly, these takedowns require a 100% commitment by the attacker. Double-leg takedowns involve diving at your opponent’s legs like a refugee rushing for free U.N. rations. Failure means finding yourself smooching his knee, sprawling on the ground, or grappling to regain control after he daintily skips his legs out of reach. Even success renders the attacker prone and, in a street fight, unable to deal with multiple attackers. It is simply too much effort to achieve a simple objective: getting your opponent off his feet.
Judo/Jiu-Jitsu takedowns on the other hand, have evolved according to a different philosophy from the spectacular athleticism favored in Wrestling. They strongly emphasize efficiency- using as little energy as possible to defeat your opponent. In fact, the central promise of Jiu-Jitsu, as effectively demonstrated at UFC 1, is that a smaller opponent can vanquish a larger foe by efficiently using his own strength and bulk against him. This means that Judo/Jiu-Jitsu takedowns tend to emphasize leg sweeps and throws that employ leverage and the skillful unbalancing of your opponent, rather than brute strength.
Yea unfortunatley I did waste my time on more of your garbage - style vs style arguments are stupid and a waste of time, some shit works, some shit doesn't, some ppl can make shit work that others can't.
the watered-down versions of Judo/Jiu-Jitsu (for the purposes of this article, I will consider them identical) are much more effective and comprehensive than the watered-down version of Wrestling, as seen today in Greco-Roman, Freestyle and Collegiate Wrestling.
So this is you NOT saying that one style is better than another? right..
I live in America! Land of the coward, home of the slave. Watch that TV, go to that football game, that circus, CNN, MSNBC, FOX and other mainstream media are not owned by large corporations, they are always honest and fair and they never lie to you. Whatever you do don't read history books, don't study the constitution, do everything you can possibly do to be happy in life. Just don't ever get involved in your government, big brother will take care of you. Your elected officials always do what's in your best interest, there is no corruption in our government, good little sheep, just make yourself happy, just entertain yourself, the government is only here to entertain you and take care of you and feed you and make you happy, don't you worry your little head over world affairs.
by O damn he got caught on Feb 16, 2012 9:12 AM EST up reply actions
Way too long to read the whole thing
But at least it’s not a comic.
I don’t think wrestling is going anywhere. Should have had Judo getting the boot. JJ and wrestling cover 90% of Judo now anyway.
Went with the wrong discipline, Mot. But the fanpost looks really pretty.
Overeem is sexy and he knows it.
Apparently being wrong and saying completely crap but writing well and having a pretty looking post gets you rec'd these days.
the rest of the 5 favorites were stale.
I rec’d it to get rid of one of the previous 5.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
Be a man, Ulf
You said you rec’d it because you thought it was well-written. Stand by your convictions? Sheep, Buffalo and Cowards follow the crowd. Men think for themselves.
hahaha
you are an absolute disgrace…you only comment when you have nothing to lose…by the way, real men also admit when theyre wrong and own up to their mistakes…something youve yet to do…and actually, by not debating with anyone who knows more than you at all, youre not standing by your convictions either, because youre refusing to defend them
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
+1, I think you made an error in the title for a start if you want to change what you are arguing when it suits
“and that Wrestling is in fact decidedly redundant” (from your summary/conclusion)
5-3, undefeated and undisputed, beat me ... if you can.
I clearly didnt learn my lesson the first time, The Pride has smashed me AGAIN. My excess estrogen has destroyed my life, I make Chaz Bono look like a real man"
Say yourself the trouble
it’s shit wrapped up in fancy verbiage to please the eye.
You have been banned from Bloody Elbow.
I don’t know what you said, but I don’t like you.
12/22/11
"You actually got banned 3 times in 2 minutes by 3 different people"
by *Californication* on Feb 15, 2012 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
Wrestling is so important because it teaches how to control someone in away that bjj and judo do not. You learn balance and weight control in a way that the other arts don’t teach. While you do score more points in wrestling for the more impressive take downs you only see those at high levels.Wrestling is about dominating your opponent not scoring flashy take downs. Judging by your post it seems you have no experience with wrestling what so ever. So you really shouldn’t even be talking about it.
by allrightallright on Feb 15, 2012 7:58 PM EST reply actions
From the article:
With maneuvering or grappling for control of your opponent however, both styles come out about even, with Wrestling possibly having a slight edge. This is because Wrestling’s focus on pinning your opponent’s shoulders builds expert skill in ground grappling,
Thanks for agreeing with me. Now, perhaps you could address the other points I made, viz: The greater efficiency in Judo/JJ takedowns, and the wider range of submission techniques, which give it the edge over wrestling.
Judo/JJ takedowns are not efficient. That’s why people like Maia can’t ever get the fight to the ground. Quit trolling.
I'd rather be trollin'.
Yeah, and they’re a fraction of the takedowns people get in MMA. Also you posted a Jones takedown, aka Greco-Roman wrestling.
Rousey’s takedowns are against low-level competition and in judo drills. Fact remains, wrestling takedowns make up the bulk of successful takedowns. Wrestlers take people down a lot more often than BJJ guys.
I repeat, stop trolling.
I'd rather be trollin'.
I also posted a video
Of a small, middle-aged Japanese politician flipping his opponent through the air. That there is the perfect demonstration of Judo: a small, old man who isn’t strong enough to do a double leg take down can easily do a tomoenage.
That video actually says it all. Judo allows you to do takedowns with very little effort. Watch it again.
are you aware that in that same video
theres nothing that says the other politician has any formal MMA training? are you also aware that in that same video the politician fails to complete a judo throw shortly thereafter? are you aware of these things mot?
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
UFC champions (current) who were wrestlers/use lots of wrestling-
Jon Jones
GSP
Frankie Edgar
Dominick Cruz
UFC champions (ever) who were judokas/used judo-
…
I'd rather be trollin'.
Machida is a judoka
but uses karate as his main base.
Mania is not quite Mania without Dakatak. Come back soon, Dak.
Please copy this sig if you agree.
Are you sure? I know he has a black belt in bjj, and I’ve often heard he trains sumo, but I’ve never heard/read anything about him using judo.
I'd rather be trollin'.
this is also what i have heard...
Pro Sig record:16-6
1 Month sig bet with 10th Degree Whitebelt that DJ does NOT win the FLW tournament
Sig bet with KaleJohnCox on Alves-Kamp. ALVES
2 month Sig/Pic bet with theoregonduck on Poirier-Zombie. POIRIER
Do you train in BJJ Mot? I do
and almost 90% of the takedowns i see at tournaments(from inhouses to IBJJF events) are double or single legs. Why? because they are the highest percentage. Marcelo Garcia(arguably the BEST P4P grappler in the world) has an entire game based off of single legs. Ryan Hall(one of America’s premier black belts) trains with a college wrestling team
Pro Sig record:16-6
1 Month sig bet with 10th Degree Whitebelt that DJ does NOT win the FLW tournament
Sig bet with KaleJohnCox on Alves-Kamp. ALVES
2 month Sig/Pic bet with theoregonduck on Poirier-Zombie. POIRIER
So some fighters prefer inefficient takedowns to efficient ones...
I’m not sure what that proves. Some people drive the long route to work- that doesn’t mean a shortcut isn;t better.
I posted gifs of inefficient wrestling takedowns vs, efficient Judo takedowns. Very clear difference. The smart fighter will choose wisely. The fact that some people make bad decisions doesn;t make them good decisions, no?
what makes singles and doubles inefficient mot?
i hope you know im gonna follow you around, if for no reason other than to prove to everyone else on this site how worthless your mma “knowledge” is
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
Im not sure how to explain it to you
There is good jiu-jitsu guys. There are great BJJ guys. There are world class BJJ guys. And then there are guys like Roger, Marcelo, and Galvao to name a few. To be one of them, u have to have the HIGHEST PERCENTAGE BJJ game there is. a single leg is easily one of the highest percentage moves in the highest level of Jiu-Jitsu, and the highest level in wrestling.
Pro Sig record:16-6
1 Month sig bet with 10th Degree Whitebelt that DJ does NOT win the FLW tournament
Sig bet with KaleJohnCox on Alves-Kamp. ALVES
2 month Sig/Pic bet with theoregonduck on Poirier-Zombie. POIRIER
There is a difference between effectiveness and efficiency. You should understand my argument, so you don’t address points I didn’t make.
Percentages are a measure of effectiveness. I never anywhere said wrestling takedowns were not effective. They may work 100% of the time (effective) but that doesn’t negate the fact that they require a lot of energy to execute and favor strong, athletic fighters. This is what I said in the post.
Judo/JJ throws on the other hand, evolved from a philosophy that even small, weak people can achieve takedowns with much less effort by using skill- leverage rather than strength. In my view, this exemplifies the true spirit of martial arts and just makes more sense.
If I want to get you on your back and I can shoot in, grab both legs and physically lift and slam you, or I can step in, hook your ankly and flip you, why would I do the former? Both work, but the latter is more efficient. If I have to choose a style, I know which I’d choose.
but why is every takedown a slam?
there are numerous takedowns that dont involve lifting your opponent and slamming him down…and you say that its just as easy to do a judo throw with less work, but thats not true…whats your response to this mot?
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
look at my response to your comment above
it refutes your point
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
heres why:
If u try ur ankle flip 20 times on a equally skilled opponent, ull realistically get it once. that wrestling takedown? much more often. If we are in a fight and u fail that takedown and i punch out and u go out, it doesnt matter how much stored up energy u had. If u had shot in full power and succeeded, then i wouldnt have knocked you unconscious. And really, favors strong athletic guys? only if u do it wrong, as mr Marcelo here doesnt look very strong or athletic 
Pro Sig record:16-6
1 Month sig bet with 10th Degree Whitebelt that DJ does NOT win the FLW tournament
Sig bet with KaleJohnCox on Alves-Kamp. ALVES
2 month Sig/Pic bet with theoregonduck on Poirier-Zombie. POIRIER
That's a valid argument
But it is also an argument for applying the right technique at the right time. Don’t attempt a takedown when a kick to the head is more appropriate, and vice versa.
Have you done any of these sports/arts yourself? Wrestling take downs are just as efficient if not more so than judo or bjj. How can you say a double leg is not efficient, have you ever done it yourself. What grounds are you basing this off?
by allrightallright on Feb 15, 2012 9:01 PM EST reply actions
He bases it off the belief that you have to lift your opponent and slam them down EVERY take down. Because he knows everything about wrestling obviously.
youve still yet to engage any of my posts by the way
either you know youd be outmatched, or youre doing it on purpose to piss me off…either way, its pathetic
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
If he doesn't engage in an argument he can't be proven wrong.
When a Texan decides to take his chances, you know chances will be taken.
Motmairtre you didn’t answer my question on how a judo/jj takedown is more efficient. The beauty of the double or single leg is the distance you can close while going for the shot. Also in wrestling they are tons of throws, many of those gifs you posted are throws you will see at any wrestling meet. I’ll add this to add a little value to my statement.
by allrightallright on Feb 15, 2012 11:12 PM EST reply actions
Look at the video I posted
Of a guy doing 25 BJJ takedowns in 2.5 minutes. There are many such videos on YouTube featuring 30 Judo takedowns at a stretch. And the guy isn’t even winded. That is because each throw requires very little energy. Your opponent’s weight is doing all the work.
You try executing 25 double leg take downs in 3 minutes and tell me how you feel. That answers it all.
oh you mean that video where the other guy isnt fighting back?
is that the video youre talking about mot?
If you think, you are late
If you are late, you use strength
If you use strength, you tire
And if you tire, you die
mot these are exhibitions wtf
Just like Rousey vs Diaz in one of your gif. In actual sparring and pressure testing the techniques it doesn’t work out as easy.
5-2, undefeated and undisputed, beat me ... if you can.
I clearly didnt learn my lesson the first time, The Pride has smashed me AGAIN. My excess estrogen has destroyed my life, I make Chaz Bono look like a real man"
There are gifs there from real MMA fights.
If ou want to debate, please do so intelligently. Are you saying nobody does Judo throws in the Octagon? If that’s your argument, then I’m afraid we have nothing to discuss. Just this evening, The Skyscraper took down his opponent in the second round with a very efficient Judo throw. He simply hooked his angle and pushed him over, right on his back. I loved it because it was very little effort to achieve a dominant ground position. On the same card, I saw wrestlers expending vast amount of energy doing double takedowns to achieve exactly the same thing. I found it almost offensive to the idea of what martial arts are: the triumph of skill over strength.
??? click the up button if you have mistaken what i've replied to, do you want me to write an essay for you instead
Sorry, i’ve discussed issues like this with infinitely more knowledgeable people. Hard to be offended by your judgements on my intelligence. It’s best if I leave it to the people like the pride and magic mike to educate you. You’re obviously on another level to me so what can I say?
5-2, undefeated and undisputed, beat me ... if you can.
I clearly didnt learn my lesson the first time, The Pride has smashed me AGAIN. My excess estrogen has destroyed my life, I make Chaz Bono look like a real man"
I reiterate.
Your response was:
mot these are exhibitions wtf
Just like Rousey vs Diaz in one of your gif. In actual sparring and pressure testing the techniques it doesn’t work out as easy.
What you;re saying is that Judo throws only work in exhibitions? So nobody uses them effectively in the Octagon? I posted a few gifs from actual MMA fights. I could find 50 more if I wanted to invest the time. But if you really are taking the position that they only work in exhibitions, while claiming to watch MMA, then there’s no point.
look what I replied to after Mike, not MMA fights, exhibitions of techniques
Of course the techniques work but I don’t think every fighter can/should use every technique. I like the JKD school of thought which would mean that some athletes are more suited even (to simplify this) to just pure power wrestling slams etc. I’d bet if you got some of these guys doing the exhibitions sparring with a resisting partner (who has skill) and it wouldn’t be as easy as you make out it is by far.
5-2, undefeated and undisputed, beat me ... if you can.
I clearly didnt learn my lesson the first time, The Pride has smashed me AGAIN. My excess estrogen has destroyed my life, I make Chaz Bono look like a real man"
wow must have been retarded that night
Well I tried
5-3, undefeated and undisputed, beat me ... if you can.
I clearly didnt learn my lesson the first time, The Pride has smashed me AGAIN. My excess estrogen has destroyed my life, I make Chaz Bono look like a real man"
Ankle picks are taught in wrestling. They are not the property of only judo. Every “judo” technique you’ve discussed or shown I’ve seen taught and used in wrestling. Judo however does not use the double and single legs to name a few. Moreover, a single and double leg are efficient. Try doing one before you put them down.
Myth: Three Americans die every year from rabies. Fact: Four Americans die every year die from rabies.
Every "judo" technique you’ve discussed or shown I’ve seen taught and used in wrestling. Judo however does not use the double and single legs to name a few.
So in conclusion, by doing only Judo, you get everything in wrestling except the inefficient doubles and singles. Which was my point all along.
Every schoolboy wrestling in the schoolyard does singles and doubles, btw. Anyone who has ever been in a streetfight has done them. Well, except me because I was trained. In my streetfighting days, after I kicked or punched my opponents, and they realised I was a skilled striker, they inevitably rushed in head down for a single or double because they figured they could dominate me on the ground. In every instance (this happened in 3 separate streetfights) I turned it around by using hip throws to take them down, and then gave them a few souvenirs on their faces with my fists to show their friends they’d been in a fight. Ahh, those were the days. Good to be young.
Singles and doubles are for the brute strength fighter, Judo/JJ throws for the trained, skilled fighter.
So you used a wrestling hip toss, good for you. They are not inefficient. I don’t know where you get this from. Now you’re just being difficult, which I’m guessing is on purpose. Where in my statement did I say that only singles and doubles are different between the two arts. There are a number of other techniques, but you clearly have your mind made up about wrestling…it’s just too bad that you didn’t take anytime to research it even a little bit before this write up.
Myth: Three Americans die every year from rabies. Fact: Four Americans die every year die from rabies.
I was trained in wrestling and use to rough up my karate and judo friends in sparring sessions
I just wish I had a boxing friend I could rough up… I’ve gotten in fights growing up, I never ever started them.. but I always started with punches when to a straight double blast they didnt see coming and would GnP them on the ground… I usually showed mercy if I could get them to giveup. Oh’ n these were 6 graders when I was a 4th grader. What you don’t also understand is changing levels… in takedowns. maybe judo and BJ is pretty n nice… but not as effective as wrestling. Oh’’’ lol I almost forgot we had 2 judo guys go through our wrestling progam, … they would always try to throw or trip and after maybe getting caught the 1st time the opponents just caught on to what they were doing and they would lower their base and not get caught again… judo guys and bj guys don’t make very good wrestlers
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
you are right MM_Eh except Judo is not used in wrestling....
Judo borrowed techniques and throws of wrestling added in a gi and made it their own sport… wrestling is the worlds oldest sport with a training manual dated back to 200 A.D.
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
it's funny u see jones use a hip toss and say it's judo
jones was going to tryout for the greco roman olympic team before he tried his hand at mma. wrestling does teach foot sweeps always has… “wrestling the world’s oldest sport”
also u say there’s points for amplitude… well that’s freestyle international wrestling not folkstyle where u have NCAA all americans entering MMA Im sure you don’t know the difference
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
oops I meant see jones use a foot sweep'''
damn Im allover this thread I’d better stop see if mot responds.. prob not he’s been beaten to a pulp already Im just the cleanup guy.
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
most judo does not work against wrestlers as any good wrestler is taught all those judo throws and how to defend as well
if u don’t sag or don’t step out front and you’re a stationary target it looks pretty n nice… but really ineffective against someone like lets say… a solid wrestler..lol
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
Wow... this is the second time ever that I click on a post by that MotHack guy. The first was the only time i ever clicked on one of the talentless comic posts.
I scanned this garbage post and it makes me sad about the state of Mania if this troll got 300+ comments out of you all.
TRAIN BY DAY, JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT - ALL DAY.
its infuriating
if Danago said it i wouldnt care, but mot actually believes this
Pro Sig record:16-6
1 Month sig bet with 10th Degree Whitebelt that DJ does NOT win the FLW tournament
Sig bet with KaleJohnCox on Alves-Kamp. ALVES
2 month Sig/Pic bet with theoregonduck on Poirier-Zombie. POIRIER
This opinion is just so poorly ill-informed
that breaking down everything wrong with it would take far more effort than I’d ever want to leave to it. Good thing that other people decided to tell him off better, otherwise I’d want to be the first. As it is, this is simply wrong, you are wrong, and you should feel bad for being wrong.
The artful muppet formerly known as KrmtDfrog.
Please read my sardonic wit and over-blown sense of self over at headkicklegend.com
by Cory Braiterman on Feb 16, 2012 4:55 PM EST reply actions
yeah Mot comes from another sport and he's a throwback to the ole days
before UFC 1 it was always thought boxers, karate guys etc were the shit in a real fight. gracies proved them all wrong… the gracie’s truely respected wrestling and studied a lot of wrestling (WRESTLING IS THE WORLDS OLDEST SPORT) that’s was for Mot, not u Cory..lol.
The Gracies knew wrestlers had no concept of submissions because wrestling as a sport does not allow submissions and that’s what made BJJ #1 in MMA. However, wrestlers quickly gained knowledge of submission defense and GnP and pretty much moved into the number #1 spot. It is now MMA Grappling imo and no longer just wrestling/BJJ/Judo.
Mot doesnt get that BJJ and Judo are derived from Wrestling.
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
GREAT POST Motmaitre!!
I think some of the (reactionary) commenters missed or overlooked some MAJOR POINTS posited in your article.
Real Simple:
- The goal of competition wrestling is to simply control your opponent by pinning their shoulders to the mat. Period.
- You can not submit or choke out your opponent during a competition.
I think that says a lot about a wrestler going into MMA.
It is a general consensus that wrestling is the best base, and most effective art.
- Californication
Just because something is the consensus or oft repeated, screamed or yelled thousands of time, just simply doesn’t make it true. Sure the numbers favors wrestlers . . I wonder why?!? Hmmm. There’s a huge wrestling program in high schools and on the collegiate level, and internationally.
My end point about the consensus.
At one point it was the consensus that (educated) doctors didn’t need to wash their hands before surgery or delivering birth. From what I understand some doctors still do not wash their hands.
--------
"I still think I can win my title back, and I still think I can even win it back from Jon Jones" . . . Rampage before UFC 144
"When I watched it, it's like I became a fan of myself, too" - Frankie Edgar on UFC 136

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