UFC 140: Dennis Hallman won last night, but he shouldn't have even stepped inside the Octagon
Full disclosure: I've never had to cut weight.
That being said, from what I've read and heard, it's probably the worst part of being a professional fighter. It's taxing on not only the body but the mind, seemingly draining as much resolve and will as it does water and just about every fighter hates doing it. It's so bad that some of them -- including greats like Mauricio Rua -- fight at a weight class above what would be considered ideal to avoid elongating the process.
But it's a part of the job and it comes with the territory of being a fighter which is why the leniency shown to those who miss weight is baffling to me. Fighters sign a contract -- a legally binding document -- to face an opponent at an agreed upon weight and when one of them breaks that stipulation, a 20% reduction in their purse is the only punishment they receive while the grueling task of shedding those last two or three pounds is left for that other sucker who managed to successfully complete every facet of his job.
Their opponent has the option of turning down the bout but one of the only times that idea was even entertained -- when Cristiane Santos came in overweight for her bout with Hitomi Akano -- Strikeforce threw enough money at the Japanese fighter to make the problem go away. Unfortunately, it's not a good look for a fighter to turn down a bout at the last minute and they're put in the awkward position of having to accept a fight against someone who now has an unfair advantage.
What it boils down to is fighters who miss weight aren't fulfilling their contractual obligations. The punishments must be harsher. Forget taking just a percentage of their pay. Fight promotions should take the whole thing. And while you're at it, a giant "L" on their record would suffice too.
And here's why.
Dennis Hallman walked into the Octagon last night after coming in two and a half pounds over the 156 pound limit and steamrolled his opponent. When something like this happens, I can't help but wonder what led to the outcome. Was it because he was the better fighter? Did he have the perfect strategy melded with the right tools and skills to defeat John Makdessi?
Or was the overweight fighter fresher because he didn't have to subject his body to the rigors of actually cutting down to the proper weight? Those last few pounds are supposed to be the hardest and some fighters might prefer to take the pay cut over subjecting their bodies to future punishment. Despite "Superman's" post-fight comments that the fight was a wash, I can't help but think that he didn't even bother to attempt a second weigh-in.
I wholeheartedly believe that fighters who come in overweight should not only have their entire purse docked but the fight shouldn't even take place. They should take the loss on their record at the scale while their opponent walks away with the win.
Like previously stated, cutting weight -- as awful as it may seem -- is part of the job. Being a professional fighter at the height of the sport involves -- among other things -- harsh training, a strict diet regimen, and yes, cutting weight. When someone drops the ball of any one of those aspects, it's disrespectful to their opponent and to the organization.
Fighters who come in with poor cardio and gas out within minutes get lambasted for their poor training habits. Combatants who step inside the cage with some pudge get railed for not sticking to a proper diet. Where's the outrage for fighters who come in overweight? Because unlike the previous two examples, not having to go through the trouble of sucking out those last extra pounds will actually improve one's performance rather than hinder it.
I can understand that there can be extenuating circumstances. Perhaps a fighter rolls their ankle and can't get in the proper cardo exercise to maintain their weight cut on schedule -- how many times have we heard that one? -- but those situations are few and far between. Besides, they could alert the UFC brass of the situation as soon as possible so that their opponent can agree sooner to a catchweight bout rather than on the spot, half naked in front of hundreds of people.
I'm sick of these so-called professional athletes acting so unprofessionally but as long as the punishment is a simple slap on the wrist, there won't be any reason for them to change.
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I think there should be more serious repercussions too otherwise fighters (especially big earners in huge fights with large potential rewards) won't care
Would 15% of a fighter’s purse per pound be so outrageous in a professional sport? Don’t forget that what’s good for one is good for all so no need to make an easy target a scapegoat to let your moneymakers off the hook.
Sig Bet 3-2
Assunciao beats Yagin (Rolandando)
Cain loses to JDS (DavidWS)
Le loses to Wand (DavidWS)
Bisping beats Miller (DavidWS)
Lil Nog beats Ortiz (Cruz Jackson)
why was he trying for lightweight anyway?
Hasn’t he fought and done really well his entire career at welterwieght and middleweight?
by i hate jake shields on Dec 11, 2011 10:20 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
He fought Pulver for the lightweight title once and I think that was early in his career
You might well be right with “most” being the word to notice. He had to have fought Hughes at WW and that was a long time ago.
Sig Bet 3-2
Assunciao beats Yagin (Rolandando)
Cain loses to JDS (DavidWS)
Le loses to Wand (DavidWS)
Bisping beats Miller (DavidWS)
Lil Nog beats Ortiz (Cruz Jackson)
He didnt look good against Pulver either
Plus the cut will be a lot harder on Hallman now that he’s older. Baffling decision to even drop to 155 in the first place especially for a veteran with cardio issues.
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by David W-S on Dec 11, 2011 2:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
With 15% 3lbs would be nearly half of the pay. That might be about right depending on if it's a repeat offence or not.
What was Johnson when he fought Yoshida. 5/6 pounds. That’s outrageous whether your cutting from 220/230 or not. So that would be 75/90% of the purse.
That might be too much but that amount of weight is ridiculous. 10% might work better up to 3/4lbs over but then I’d prefer it being increased for repeat offenders and people high over the limit.
Sig Bet 3-2
Assunciao beats Yagin (Rolandando)
Cain loses to JDS (DavidWS)
Le loses to Wand (DavidWS)
Bisping beats Miller (DavidWS)
Lil Nog beats Ortiz (Cruz Jackson)
10% for the first 5 lbs and 5% for any over 5?
by DetroitDrew1980 on Dec 11, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
Could be the one
Some sort of scale might work, but I think it should increase the more you are overweight personally.
Sig Bet 3-2
Assunciao beats Yagin (Rolandando)
Cain loses to JDS (DavidWS)
Le loses to Wand (DavidWS)
Bisping beats Miller (DavidWS)
Lil Nog beats Ortiz (Cruz Jackson)
Whatever the % percent doc from purse
I agree it should be per lb, and also dana has his own strict policy of cutting repeat offenders for not making weight a second time
"Did you know that if you mix equal parts
of gasoline and equal parts frozen orange juice
concentrate, you can make napalm?"
by THORAZINE on Dec 11, 2011 1:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Strict policy? Is that sarcasm in the air?
Sig Bet 3-2
Assunciao beats Yagin (Rolandando)
Cain loses to JDS (DavidWS)
Le loses to Wand (DavidWS)
Bisping beats Miller (DavidWS)
Lil Nog beats Ortiz (Cruz Jackson)
I'm proud of picking Hallman last night and I do believe that he's got the skills to defeat Makdessi even on weight
We don’t know but the evidence has to sway that way now. The way Hallman swarmed with confidence didn’t put him in much danger of being KO’d and considering his opponent must have been aware of the plan beforehand that it was gonna be sudden, it’s likely that history would repeat itself or it would play out the same if he made weight last night.
I’d prefer to know it though and I feel the same thing when fighters don’t make weight. Alves v Hughes comes instantly to mind. Even a fight that I don’t think would go any differently like Mayweather v Marquez I just hate the fact that it happens because you never know for absolute sure.
Sig Bet 3-2
Assunciao beats Yagin (Rolandando)
Cain loses to JDS (DavidWS)
Le loses to Wand (DavidWS)
Bisping beats Miller (DavidWS)
Lil Nog beats Ortiz (Cruz Jackson)
at a post fight interview (outside the cage) Hallman stated that he was continuing to try and lose the weight
but he was in the sauna for 15 more minutes (cutting the time very close to first weigh-in) and he had completely stopped sweating. He said his trainer called it off because at that point trying to cut more weight actually becomes a serious health risk. He felt completely ashamed and embarrassed as he miscalculated his weight-cut by about one week according to him. Again, these are his words. He stated it’s been about 10 years since his last weight cut down the 155 but he feels confident that this will not happen again. He also stated that at 170 he was fighting guys so much bigger than he was and felt that a move down to 155 would be better for his career. He’s likely one of those tweeners who’s a bit undersized for WW but has to be spot-on to make 155.
I’m not defending him coming in heavy…i just was sharing what I watched in his interview with Helwani. I too find it incredibly unprofessional to miss weight while leaving a little room for those cases of legitimate injury or illness inhibiting the cut. I still think the fight should go on if the on-weight opponent agrees, but i also think that the financial punishment should be harsher.
Life's what happens while you're making other plans
Yeah first cuts and other cases like injury and illness should be treated a little differently.
I include first cuts because going by your comment, Hallman seems genuinely regretful that he couldn’t do it and did everything within his power (at that late stage) to try and mend the mistake he made. That’s different to Johnson or Alves coming in repeatedly over the weight (3 – 6 pounds in some cases) and knocking the block off of undersized fighters like Fiorvanti and Yoshida which were pretty bad matchups in the first place.
Sig Bet 3-2
Assunciao beats Yagin (Rolandando)
Cain loses to JDS (DavidWS)
Le loses to Wand (DavidWS)
Bisping beats Miller (DavidWS)
Lil Nog beats Ortiz (Cruz Jackson)
Same day weigh ins.
It will make fights fairer for those who have problems cutting weight, or don’t want to fuck up their systems permanently.
It will also reduce the likelihood that fighters will try these extreme cuts if they know they will have to fight a few hours later.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
+1
If you want to cut tens of pounds to be as big a man in the division as you can do it on the day. Level the playing field.
Sig Bet 3-2
Assunciao beats Yagin (Rolandando)
Cain loses to JDS (DavidWS)
Le loses to Wand (DavidWS)
Bisping beats Miller (DavidWS)
Lil Nog beats Ortiz (Cruz Jackson)
-1
same day weight cuts would lead to much worse fights…its just not enough time to get all your strength back
We all do damage; character is determined by how we repair it.
No time at all in the same day? Not even 8 hours?
Sig Bet 3-2
Assunciao beats Yagin (Rolandando)
Cain loses to JDS (DavidWS)
Le loses to Wand (DavidWS)
Bisping beats Miller (DavidWS)
Lil Nog beats Ortiz (Cruz Jackson)
24 hours is a long time to put on weight lost through water to make it an unlevel playing field.
Ideally somebody like Johnson should be a MW and fighters like Fiorvanti and Yoshida should be able to test themselves against other small / average sized WWs instead of being forced to compete at LW because they’d be in physical mismatches. Alves is harder to call a MW but he’s right at the limit for me.
At least that’s how I see it. If you want to cut enough weight to feel that drained, you’re looking to gain an advantage anyway. Balance it out so you can recuperate in something between 14 – 10 hours then. Is that really too much to ask?
Sig Bet 3-2
Assunciao beats Yagin (Rolandando)
Cain loses to JDS (DavidWS)
Le loses to Wand (DavidWS)
Bisping beats Miller (DavidWS)
Lil Nog beats Ortiz (Cruz Jackson)
by grapplefan on Dec 11, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
to be honest, the reason im against same day cuts
is because of the “if it aint broke dont fix it” principle…theres nothing wrong with weigh ins the day before, so why change it?
We all do damage; character is determined by how we repair it.
There are people in the same weight classes that have no business fighting eachother just on a size/muscle level.
I suppose the same is true at HW but I do believe that the change would be positive rather than just create new problems.
Sig Bet 3-2
Assunciao beats Yagin (Rolandando)
Cain loses to JDS (DavidWS)
Le loses to Wand (DavidWS)
Bisping beats Miller (DavidWS)
Lil Nog beats Ortiz (Cruz Jackson)
but they dont have no business fighting each other
these are what the rules allow, these weight classes and this amount of time between weigh ins and fights…bones is huge for 205, but he makes it, so whats the issue?
We all do damage; character is determined by how we repair it.
Hendo could make HW but I don't really want to watch him vs Brock Lesnar because it wouldn't come down to what I like to watch
Skill vs skill, heart vs heart. Bones has obviously got skills and the ability to make a win happen, but he’s also got many advantages that get him through some tough spots and make him more devastating than he would be otherwise.
Sig Bet 3-2
Assunciao beats Yagin (Rolandando)
Cain loses to JDS (DavidWS)
Le loses to Wand (DavidWS)
Bisping beats Miller (DavidWS)
Lil Nog beats Ortiz (Cruz Jackson)
You're being circular
A rule change would make it no longer within the rules, ergo making the “its within the rules” argument invalid.
Same day weigh ins level the playing field between those who can cut a lot of weight, and those who can’t (or choose not to because of the permanent damage it can do to the body).
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
Because weight-cutting is bullshit in the first place. fight someone your own size if you ain't scared, homie.
The only reason they allow 24 hour weigh-ins is because fighters will kill themself, literally, to make weight in an impossible timeframe.
If you already weigh in at more than the limit of the weight class above you, that’s where you should be fighting. Granted there are always exceptions but cutting 30+ lbs is bullshit. If you walk around at 205 and want to fight at WW then you need to lose weight permanently so that you don’t cut 30+ lbs.
There are several solutions proposed for this and NJAC implements the 11% regain rule. You aren’t allowed to put on more than 11% of your body weight before the fight after your initial weigh-in.
"It’s Mark Pavelich calling from the Maximum Fighting Championship,
I’ve just received notice that Drew Fickett or you, I don’t care which one of you fuckers did it, has signed a contract to fight in Strikeforce this fucking weekend. I’m going to get on a fucking plane soon and go where you’re at and choke you the fuck out. I’m telling you right now, I’ve had enough of your fucking shit. First of all, I’ve sent you the fucking pictures and secondly, I placed Drew Fickett in a fight fucking months ago and five weeks prior to my main event of my fucking fight card. You’re going to give me a fucking call tomorrow or I swear I’ll get on a fucking plane and go right where you’re at right now. You’re pissing me off, I’ve been nothing but professional to you motherfuckers and you’re doing this kind of bullshit, alright? Call me back, I’m fucking pissed."
by Swedish Chef smerdy herdy verdy on Dec 11, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
It is great that someone is addressing this
Its bothered me for a while, and I hope they actually do something about it.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
Yeah I always watch the weigh-in in New Jersey with interest. It may 13% instead of 11% but I can't remember.
"It’s Mark Pavelich calling from the Maximum Fighting Championship,
I’ve just received notice that Drew Fickett or you, I don’t care which one of you fuckers did it, has signed a contract to fight in Strikeforce this fucking weekend. I’m going to get on a fucking plane soon and go where you’re at and choke you the fuck out. I’m telling you right now, I’ve had enough of your fucking shit. First of all, I’ve sent you the fucking pictures and secondly, I placed Drew Fickett in a fight fucking months ago and five weeks prior to my main event of my fucking fight card. You’re going to give me a fucking call tomorrow or I swear I’ll get on a fucking plane and go right where you’re at right now. You’re pissing me off, I’ve been nothing but professional to you motherfuckers and you’re doing this kind of bullshit, alright? Call me back, I’m fucking pissed."
by Swedish Chef smerdy herdy verdy on Dec 11, 2011 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
same day weight cuts would lead to much worse fights…its just not enough time to get all your strength back
Then they will lose to the guy who didn’t cut so much weight, and next time they learn the lesson. It will become their choice if they want to wipe themselves out before a fight, or if they want to win.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
when you miss weight by that little
i dont think it has much affect on the outcome…its not like a HW coming in at 274 to fight a smaller HW who fights at 230 regularly anyway…fighters miss weight, its a part of the sport almost as much as cutting itself…if he shows that he consistently cant make 155, then dont let him fight there, but dont take his whole purse or put an L on his record because of one screwed up weight cut, especially when he was completely drawn out trying to get to his mark, it wasnt like he got to 160 and was just like “fuck it”
We all do damage; character is determined by how we repair it.
sometimes it really does make a big impact
especially if the fight turns into more of a ground fight. Those extra lbs will add up over the fight.
3 pounds is not that much of an impact
believe me, even in a ground fight…just an example, if bisping weighs in at 189 hes gonna wear out maia on the ground? absolutely not
We all do damage; character is determined by how we repair it.
well no, but they're skills are widely different.
What I mean is if say a fighter weighs in dry at 189, and his opponent has an average weight cut to 185. Well the fighter that is sucked out and over, is going to be well over 200lbs before the fight most likely, while his opponent could be anywhere from 190-195. Could be a 10-15lbs difference.
if the two fighters are equal in skill, it makes a difference. bisping and maia are not equal on the ground though.
the disparity is similar to this fight though
hallman isnt as good as maia, but makdessi isnt nearly as good as bisping
We all do damage; character is determined by how we repair it.
Didnt silva earn shot at GSP and title
after coming in overweight (again) against Hughes? I think its some bs but UFC has too much money tied into these fights and doesn’t want to pull fights that late and its not even a possibility to give them a loss. Im a fan of miss weight twice, you cant fight in that division for 1 year.
*Alves
Sig Bet 3-2
Assunciao beats Yagin (Rolandando)
Cain loses to JDS (DavidWS)
Le loses to Wand (DavidWS)
Bisping beats Miller (DavidWS)
Lil Nog beats Ortiz (Cruz Jackson)
No he got the shot by beating Kos on short notice
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by David W-S on Dec 11, 2011 2:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ah, good point. Didn't remember that.
Sig Bet 3-2
Assunciao beats Yagin (Rolandando)
Cain loses to JDS (DavidWS)
Le loses to Wand (DavidWS)
Bisping beats Miller (DavidWS)
Lil Nog beats Ortiz (Cruz Jackson)
It was Kos stepping up on short notice
Sig Bet 3-2
Assunciao beats Yagin (Rolandando)
Cain loses to JDS (DavidWS)
Le loses to Wand (DavidWS)
Bisping beats Miller (DavidWS)
Lil Nog beats Ortiz (Cruz Jackson)
When the fighter loses part of their purse, it should go directly to their opponent.
You probably couldn’t include win bonuses thoug, or else underpaid guys fighting big money names would have an incentive to throw the match if their own win bonus was smaller than a cut of their opponenets.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
----------------------------
I choose Snatch!
Zakree
----------------------------
K1 Level Predictions Team Cut Man
It does. If you miss weight you give 20% of you’re purse to your opponent
GO BIG, OR GO HOME!!!
by LOKIE on Dec 11, 2011 6:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
thanks. I knew that money got subtracted from the purse, but I didn't know if it went to the opponent or promoter.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
----------------------------
I choose Snatch!
Zakree
----------------------------
K1 Level Predictions Team Cut Man
I agree
that the punishment isn’t harsh enough. I think they ought to take more of their purse and give it to the other fighter… but if you cancel the fight and give an “L” you’re only hurting the fans and the organization.
I've cut weight for over 10 years
and now do it as a professional fighter. by no means do i know it all, but this is my opinion from someone who does in fact have to diet, cut weight and perform as a profession.
Now I don’t believe that if fighter A misses weight then the fight should be automatically called off. I think the 20% is bullshit and should be atleast 50% or greater depending on the weight. If fighter B decides he wants to take the fight, he should be allowed to fight. He put in the time and effort to not only make weight but to train for weeks. cutting a fight like that is devastating and in this situation its not the answer.
Cutting weight really does make an enormous difference in a fight. Much more in MMA than boxing because of the grappling and holding someoneones bodyweight, etc. So even if a fighter is only 1lbs over, its really more than 1lbs. theyre needs to possibly be a 3 strike and you automatically cant fight in that weight division anymore (AC controlled). The fighter loses his win bonus, some incentive to make it really not even an option to skip out on the last 2lbs.
isnt it a safety issue?
Seems like the UFC wants to avoid forcing fighters to do drastic last minute cuts because of the multitude of dangers involved…
I think they have it pretty much right with the financial punishment. They cant force fighters to cut properly so the only safe thing to do is dock pay…
This will not stand man, this aggression will not stand!
by RearNakedToke on Dec 11, 2011 2:21 PM EST via mobile reply actions
its not the UFC
the athletic commission penalizes the fighters. If you don’t make weight you pay the give the commission 20% of your purse, not the UFC.
They definitely need it to be a financial impact, but i believe if you automatically lose your win bonus or 50% of your purse if you lose will make a huge difference. Everyone likes their win bonus. its prize fighting. generally, the whole point to begin with.
You give 20% to you’re opponent not the commission. I’d fight a guy that out weighed me by five fucking pouds for my payday and 20% of his. Especially since I would have already signed to fight the guy thinking I could beat him. Fuck man it’s a damn mistake. Guys are compensated if they choose to still fight so what’s the problem
GO BIG, OR GO HOME!!!
by LOKIE on Dec 11, 2011 6:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
the problem i think,
is more of the ego of the fighter in not declining a fight. Especially after you made weight and the fight is within a day. If a fighter has to fight somebody that is 4lbs over and is really good, he might take the fight because 1. he needs/was expecting that pay check 2. has bills 3. already put a camp in 4. doesnt want to look like a beta
An automatic loss seems a little too harsh. If the fighter’s fault is violating their contractual obligations (to fight X person, at Y weight, on Z day) then it seems like the next step is handing out Ls when a fighter calls out of a fight due to injury. However, the 20% doesn’t seem like enough. It would be easier if UFC contracts were more uniform, then you could simply take a fighter’s win bonus if they failed to make weight. This would result in 0 dollars for fighters who failed to make weight and lost and a 50% cut to fighters who failed to make weight and won. Unfortunately, not all fighters’ contracts include win bonuses so this rule can’t be universally applied.
yeah
He wants jesus to come soon. And I’m sure jesus would say “hey, I’m glad you’re beating people senseless in my name, son. Now, off to hell with you.”
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
The problem with an automatic loss
is that what do you do for the fans in attendance and TV? The fans lose the fight but don’t get anything back, so I think letting them fight is the lesser of two evils.
But I’m surprised I haven’t heard Nick Pace getting cut after coming in SIX OVER and still getting killed in there.
I'm not impressed by your performance......
Gotta say i agree
on the harsher pentalties for missing weight. Maybe not an automatic loss but something noted on their record indicating the failure and the loss of 50% of their purse. Something like that…..
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