UFC Quick Quote: Gray Maynard isn't finishing his opponents -- but neither is anyone else
by Jesse Holland on Aug 31, 2010 2:15 AM EDT
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"That's what I keep telling people! Who is stopping them? Name a name and I'll bow down, but who is stopping these guys? That's why I can't pay attention to these people. If you're a true sports fan who enjoys MMA and really try to understand it, you'll get it. Look at Edgar. He's only ever lost to myself. Look at Clementi, who has 52 professional fights and has only been stopped a handful of times. Jim Miller has only lost to the champion and myself. Huerta has never been stopped. Pretty much the same thing with Nate Diaz. Florian did get stopped by Penn, but you see what I mean. It's an excuse, but that's just how it is. I'm asking for the top guys. The decisions are just part of it. The sport is growing so much that these fights are just going to keep getting closer and closer. I don't know what people are going to do, but there are going to be a lot more close fights. More fighters are able to pull in the cash you need to hire the top coaches and eat and train right. We're going up against the guys where that's all they do year round. They train everyday. The gap is going to start to close on these title fights. Guys are getting better and better. People will start to appreciate it, it just takes time."
UFC lightweight number one contender Gray Maynard doesn't understand what all the fuss is about concerning his inability to finish opponents inside the Octagon. "The Bully" remains perfect at 10-0 but has gone to the judge's scorecards in seven consecutive fights. The former TUF runner-up tells David St. Martin at SB Nation that each decision is a credit to his opponent -- not a knock against his skill set. Do you agree? And will he be able to repeat his performance against Frankie Edgar when they rematch in 2011? Opinions please.
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Gray and Pray
How about stop making excuses and calling fans ignorant, and apologize say you’ll try harder, take a page out of GSP.
I know you have had a tough roster of fights, but 7 decisions in a row? I’m sorry time to take ‘some’ personal responsibility.
Jon Jones LHW Champion 2011
Gray and Pray LW Champion 2011
both maynard and edgar are hard to watch they are boring as hell and cant finish a fight to save thier lives
im just hopeful that gomi will get his shot soon and bring some excitement to the wieght class
also i feel cheated
where the hell where blogs 2 3 & 4 from dana especially the blog of fight night that was always the best one and he hasnt posted one of those since like 109 if i was on teitter i would tweet him and ask him what is up
and what the hell happned to mma live post 118 they said in thier weekly show they where ganna have a post coverage show all i saw was a 8 min interview with couture
I WANT ANSWERS DAMN it
A page out of GSP??? Why does he finish a lot of fights?
Anderson Silva is by far the number one P4P king!!! Even when he is losing a fight he still comes back and finishes for the win! GSP dominates the whole fight and still can't finish! LOL
more then half yes. 13 of 20
And to Grays 7 in a row decisions its not looking too bad. Also not what he was saying anyways. He was saying GSP doesn’t blame the fans, he blames himself when he isn’t able to finish. That’s what he said.
www.mondaymorningblackbelt.com
by daniel worby on Aug 31, 2010 9:00 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
GSP hating is really lame
You don’t have one legit reason to hate him. He’s the most rounded fighter in the sport you pretend to love.
Noons does not have power in his hands. Maybe his knees but his hands do not have KO power. they’re good enough to cut up and swell up gurgel’s face, but he won’t be ko’ing gurgel tonight.-STAK
One doesn't need a legit reason to hate a fighter.
We all have our biases and likes/dislikes, so however I feel about a fighter, it just is.
BJ Penn is the biggest waste of talent in MMA history. Like usual, my pick was wrong and I blame a certain pudgy Hawaiin for my own short comings when it comes to talent selection. As it stands BZ – 3 Freenow82 – 1.
Then say that. Which you have and I commend you for it. I'm the same way. I hate some fighters for no reason better than their hair.
But Bow brings GSP into almost every conversation and tries to pass his opinion on as fact. That gets annoying.
Noons does not have power in his hands. Maybe his knees but his hands do not have KO power. they’re good enough to cut up and swell up gurgel’s face, but he won’t be ko’ing gurgel tonight.-STAK
While im not a gsp fan by any means I agree he is the most well rounded in mma. I just hate how he always says the right thing out of the cage, noone is that perfect
Only sailors use condoms, and im a f&*king pirate!!!
by LOKIE on Aug 31, 2010 10:35 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That's understandable. It's getting a little old with me too.
I hope he does something exciting in the house. Maybe punches a hole in a wall(or Kos’ face) or calls someone a bad name. Anything to contrast the Mary Poppins image he is going with now.
Noons does not have power in his hands. Maybe his knees but his hands do not have KO power. they’re good enough to cut up and swell up gurgel’s face, but he won’t be ko’ing gurgel tonight.-STAK
some people arent punks, and actully act respectfully and you judge them for it?
GSP is a man who eats and sleeps mma, he isnt the most charismatic and acknowledges that. Who gives a shit what’s getting old for you, no offence
by snipersniper on Aug 31, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I meant
GSP apologizes when he finishes fights, he gets on the mic and apologizes and says he will try harder.
Gray gets on the mic and calls fans ignorant and makes excuses.
Which one is easier to root for?
Jon Jones LHW Champion 2011
Gray and Pray LW Champion 2011
well
Edgar bores me a bit, he doesn’t have much finish in him but he tries.
He switches it up, great sweeps, dynamic take downs, good striking, I don’t know why I find him boring and I don’t hold it against him because he’s out there doing everything he can.
Jon Jones LHW Champion 2011
Gray and Pray LW Champion 2011
He doesn't do it for me either
He makes me dizzy with all his bobbing and weaving, ducking and diving. He looks like he’s from one of those old silent movies where everything appears sped up.
I think he has hit the nail in the head
hes right…and im not even a fan!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PWyOrw6rNg
- The reason you gotta respect Rampage, if not love him!
by Randy for Couture on Aug 31, 2010 7:24 AM EDT up reply actions
This is ignorant
go watch every volume of ultimate knockouts, that might be more your style. Not finishing fights does not equal boring fights. Especially in the case of Frankie’s last fight with Penn. Sure finishes offer a clear cut winner but so does dominating someone for the majority of a fight. I’m not a huge Maynard fan either but just like Fitch, if you can’t stop the takedown then tough shit. Control is part of winning fights.
Edgar is boring. Or at least the two BJ fights were boring.
He was running around and jabbing his way to victory. It’s the exact same thing Bisping tries to do and everyone makes fun of him. I don’t blame Edgar for not finishing BJ. I do blame him for winning by NOT engaging. The same way I wasn’t impressed with Machida when he was “elusive” or Starnes.
Noons does not have power in his hands. Maybe his knees but his hands do not have KO power. they’re good enough to cut up and swell up gurgel’s face, but he won’t be ko’ing gurgel tonight.-STAK
I am a BJ fan but I have to come to Edgar's defense...he took it to BJ in the rematch. He did engage - its just that BJ has a granite chin.
"Friends and lovers lie endlessly, caught in the web of duty. Only enemies speak the truth.
-Stephen King
Maybe it's the same old same old that is bugging me.
I can’t blame Edgar for following the EXACT same game plan as last time, but watching 10 rounds of Edgar bouncing around has really soured me to him. I wasn’t a fan in the first place but those two fights just didn’t do it for me. Knowing that Edgar isn’t going to finish most people with that winning game plan is nothing to look forward to.
Noons does not have power in his hands. Maybe his knees but his hands do not have KO power. they’re good enough to cut up and swell up gurgel’s face, but he won’t be ko’ing gurgel tonight.-STAK
Not exactly. He was more aggressive in the rematch. He landed some hard shots, Jay. And he took BJ down with authority. Watch the fight again. It is not the same as the first one. Not even close.
"Friends and lovers lie endlessly, caught in the web of duty. Only enemies speak the truth.
-Stephen King
He did everything a bit better than last time. That may have more to do with Penn though. I knew Penn had given up on that fight in the second round.
It was the same plan though. Bob and weave, look more active than BJ, use your speed to avoid contact, few take downs with no plan to finish it on the floor…
I hate BJ but was rooting for him in this fight. Edgar isn’t my cup o’ tea.
Noons does not have power in his hands. Maybe his knees but his hands do not have KO power. they’re good enough to cut up and swell up gurgel’s face, but he won’t be ko’ing gurgel tonight.-STAK
He landed some hard punches on the ground
We saw flashes of GSP-Penn, with Frankie stacking BJ and throwing some big shots. He definately tried, but remember that GSP had to do three times the pounding to get Penn to give up. Unless he’s gassed or in a salaverry, no LW is finishing Penn.
Frankie rocked Veach, which is no easy task. On the other hand, has Maynard ever dropped anyone?
I respect that Jay
There are fighter’s and styles that people wont like but to say that Edgar wasn’t trying to finish the fight is borderline ludicrous. Facts: BJ has an unbreakable chin, has the most dangerous guard at LW, has the most dangerous back control and has been toted as the best boxer in mma. (see Freddie Roach). Frankie stifled all aspects of BJ’s strengths by outboxing him, jumping into his guard and working from it, escaped BJ when he was on his back and actively pursued and attacked.
That has to be a least a little bit impressive, right?
Did you actually read what Maynard said?
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 31, 2010 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions
that question is basically rhetorical
Obviously he didn’t.
BJ Penn is the biggest waste of talent in MMA history. Like usual, my pick was wrong and I blame a certain pudgy Hawaiin for my own short comings when it comes to talent selection. As it stands BZ – 3 Freenow82 – 1.
I did
He does make a valid point; he’s had a hard roster of people, but after 3-4 years without a finish maybe it’s also time to admit your not great at it, and stop making excuses and calling fans ignorant.
Jon Jones LHW Champion 2011
Gray and Pray LW Champion 2011
That's not really fair. Gray makes alot of sense. I would tend to agree with him. Just enjoy the fights as a whole, people.
"Friends and lovers lie endlessly, caught in the web of duty. Only enemies speak the truth.
-Stephen King
Something tells me that some fans think like Glen Beck where truth, reality and fairness need not apply. Gray makes some real solid arguments.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 31, 2010 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Something tells me that some fans think like
Glen BeckNancy Pelosi where truth, reality and fairness need not apply. Gray makes some real solid arguments.
Fixed…but I get your point. ;)
"Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is to not stop questioning." - Albert Einstein
All politicians lie unless proven otherwise. Fixed. The End.
"Friends and lovers lie endlessly, caught in the web of duty. Only enemies speak the truth.
-Stephen King
Beck is as much a politician as Jon Stewart – they’re not. but yeah, I’ll go with your statement indicting all politicians. (See: the Governor of New Jersey)
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 31, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Pelosi = elected official.
Beck = talk show host.
They’re not interchangeable but I guess I see where you’re coming from.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 31, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
So which is more evil?
Someone who purposely spews garbage to gain ratings or someone who believes that what they are saying should happen for the “greater good”?
I am not trying to start an argument, because I think both are raving lunatics that have no purpose being in the public eye, but I would garner a $100 bet that you would get more people to tell you who Beck was than Pelosi (on a random street in anywhere America) and that is sad to me.
"Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is to not stop questioning." - Albert Einstein
Brock, Carwin, Shogun, Franklin (for the most part), Anderson Silva, Maia (for the most part)...
Jon Jones, JDS, Cain Velasquez are just a few names that finish most of their fights….Start Bowing Gray! It is one thing to not finish occasional fights, but when you have 10, 13, 15 WIns, and 8, 10,12 of them are decisons that is a whole other story! I am not sure there are many fans that appreciate Grays or Fitches style of fighting or ever will. It is effective, but I think it lacks. Guys like Gray and Fitch hardly even try to finish the fight and I think that in itself is another huge part of it. They are comfortable with riding out the decisions, than actually trying to put the fight away.
"My fault, my failure, is not in the passions I have, but in my lack of control of them."
If Gray learns to apply more subs then he will finish more fights. He does GnP but it is not devastating like a Matt Hughes. Give him some time to develop. Fitch tries to finish but he just does not have the tools to get it done.
"Friends and lovers lie endlessly, caught in the web of duty. Only enemies speak the truth.
-Stephen King
Give Maynard some time. WIth the limited tools that he has now, he’s still a winner.
What would you have him do? Try to a be a jiu-jitsu fighter who wants to stand and bang in order to give the fans a show? Jorge Gurgel did that. He went away from his strength and how was he treated for his efforts? He got a pink slip.
I don’t know how many times I’ve seen a fighter attempt to fight out of his comfort zone and lose a fight and future possible opportunities.
Rashad Evans did attempt to take down Lyoto Machida, what happened? He tried to match speed and his striking in a title match? Then he comes back to his roots and defeats both Thiago Silva and Quinton Jackson with some really great wrestling.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 31, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
I was just commenting on what he said...
He said nobody is finishing guys. I realize that Fitch does try to finish but I just hate riding out a victory mind set that a lot of the wrestlers have. I am not saying every fight has to be a stand and bang, because I actually do enjoy the ground game better, but more the bjj guys. I said it was effective and it worked. I will give it its credit. I just don’t think you can call imply the fans don’t get it because they don’t enjoy watching a pro fighter sitting in guard for 15 to 25 minutes. I don’t think fans will ever enjoy that style of riding out a win style. I hope Maynard excels into a true ground wiz, but I don’t think we will see that happen for a really long time. I wish more wrestlers had the GNP of a Hughes, Ortiz, or Jon Jones….
"My fault, my failure, is not in the passions I have, but in my lack of control of them."
Gray v Kenflo was worst fight of the night
the most boring 15 minutes I have watched in a long time……. It made Fitch look good
Fuck you! I'm an ANTEATER!
That's true.
He finished himself in that one. I believe he was whining after that one also.
by Mayhem chimpanzee on Aug 31, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
lightweight division
does get a lot of decisions….guida, griffin etc. I’d like to see the number of decisions compared to other divisions over a certain period od time
by drudog1715 on Aug 31, 2010 2:37 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
There are a few factors working against him.
At least as I see them, here they are:
1. Lightweights are obviously smaller human beings than the guys at higher weight classes. Smaller equals shorter arms, and generally less muscle, which means that maximum torque at the point of impact will be less with a guy who has a 72" reach and a 155lb body behind it, compared to a 77" reach and a 205lb body behind it. Simple physics on this one.
2. Most human beings are much smaller than athletic middleweights. In fact, it takes a pretty damn big guy to be a weight-cutting 170lb fighter. So the total athletic talent pool is larger for 155lb fighters than for any class above them. This means that, generally, the physical tools gap will be far smaller in LW compared to higher divisions. So there isn’t likely to be this massive disparity in raw physical ability, including chin and coordination/reaction times.
3. Training has made massive gains in the last decade. There’s not a great way to quantify this, but there is simply no question that Maynard makes a good point about everyone being better prepared. Technique is a huge part of any athletic endeavor, and we’re finally to the point where top-shelf training methods are no longer confined to the high-level amateur wrestling crowd.
Decision rates should always be higher for the LW’s compared to the others, and it should steadily drop the higher you go in weight.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
Or maybe its because he is a one dimensional wrestler who doesn’t really know any BJJ or how to GnP effectively?
My post didn't have much to do with Maynard,
but thanks for that insightful reply. In fact, I referenced him exactly once when I said he made a good point about preparation.
Decisions at LW have been increasing pretty steadily for the last few years. I don’t see any reason to expect that trend to suddenly reverse, and my reasoning is above.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
I agree with you Jones...
Smaller guys just don’t have as much raw KO power – whatever size you are it takes a similar impact on your brain to knock you out so a punch that would KO Maynard would probably KO Lesnar – but Lesnar is far more likely to get hit by a punch with that power at heavyweight (timing/speed issues aside).
My issue with the whole decision thing lies with wrestlers (literally), wrestling is scored very highly in MMA and so the sport is starting to get dominated by lay n pray or “lay n patter” crap fights. Andre Winner was beaten by a guy who humped his leg for 3 rounds in the prelims, Winner showed excellent takedown defence (not rewarded by judges) and got a few good clean strikes off when he had the chance – however if someone is determined to hold on to you for 15 minutes it’s pretty hard to stop them and the judges seem to favor this “Octagon control” over actual fighting (and I don’t mind active wrestling with subs and damaging strikes at all) – what should be happening is the referees being told to separate these huggers FAR more quickly than they do. It’s not good for a spectator sport at the end of the day. Who would actually like the top guys in each division to be Maynard, Fitch, Sonnen, Tito and Brock (I’m not totally convinced by Brock yet – his victory over Carwin was as hollow to me as Silva’s over Sonnen, the other guy lost rather than him winning! No doubt about his wrestling but he still has a couple of lay n patter punch wins in his short career).
Ask frank Mir's face if those were "patter" punches, the guy looked like the elephant man after.
The only fight he arguably did “lay n patter punch” was the herring fight after Herring went into full turtle shell mode after having his eye socket broken with the first punch of the fight.
Rest of your post i agree with on the whole.
Yeah Dog,
I’m sure those patter punches are a lot harder than they look! I just don’t like the style, for me the textbook of G’n’P should have a big pic of Fedor by it – he’s one of the only guys I’ve seen slam into their opponents with real power on the floor, though that seems to have been his downfall in his last fight! :(
The way Fedor punches is unique and ill-advised.
It’s pretty well documented that the reason he has so many thumb/wrist issues is because of the way he holds his hand. The alignment of his hand to his forearm is the big reason why he is able to put such a vicious snap on his punches while administering that oh-so-sweet looking crack to the ribs.
To my understanding, that’s one of the biggest reasons nobody else looks as vicious from those positions.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
A lot of well thought-out points and ideas here.
And I agree with most of them. Wrestlers will most likely dominate for a while longer, but I think the greater issue here, is not that wrestlers arn’t finish their opponents, it’s that they don’t even TRY to finish their opponents.. They know their top control is so solid and pretty-much irreversible that they can ride out decision wins without much risk. Until the day we get fighters who can stop this, prepare for this to happen often. (See Rashad vs Shogun!, And I love Shogun :( )
To add to this : the rules and judging allow for wrestlers to lay n pray and achieve victory. Why risk anything if you can get away with it? Change the judging criteria or the rules or both and you eliminate that aspect.
"Friends and lovers lie endlessly, caught in the web of duty. Only enemies speak the truth.
-Stephen King
so very true!
BJ Penn is the biggest waste of talent in MMA history. Like usual, my pick was wrong and I blame a certain pudgy Hawaiin for my own short comings when it comes to talent selection. As it stands BZ – 3 Freenow82 – 1.
See : Lentz vs. Winner as a clear cut example. Just awful.
"Friends and lovers lie endlessly, caught in the web of duty. Only enemies speak the truth.
-Stephen King
Ok, so how about this?
1:00 timer for ground action after a takedown, but re-implement knees to the head of a downed opponent. Fair?
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
I'm with you in principle about the conservative gameplans wrestlers use
to win ending in less-than-stellar excitement levels much of the time. I don’t have the energy at this particular moment to go into it in detail, but I’ll say that I place just as much blame on the opponent as I do the wrestler for a fight delivering less entertainment than we hope for/expect.
As for Brock, I’m with attakdog above my post here. Brock’s finished all but one of his victories, and the one that went the distance was to prove a point more than anything, in my opinion.
The rules have already been altered to neutralize the wrestling gameplans significantly. I mean, I guess you could do even more, including standups after a predetermined amount of time following the takedown (then you have to go into defining a takedown somehow like they do in collegiate wrestling, but that’s not the end of the world). But after they took knees to the head of a downed opponent, wrestlers are kind of already screwed. North-south or side mount are pretty useless positions nowadays compared to when knees where allowed.
But I am with you on excitement needing to maintain a certain level. It’s just that I rebel at the notion that the guys hanging out on the bottom, tying up hands and not working to improve position while a wrestler tries to get into a better position, should be given a pass in this ‘wrestlers make boring fights’ notion that gets more circulation than it should.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
True
Many wrestlers can perform well, Bones Jones is a great example of dynamic wrestling. It’s just those that are content to keep it on the floor with no plan other than to transition for 5 minutes so the ref doesn’t stand them up that frankly bore the shit out of me. Kos vs Daley or any Fitch fight being prime examples.
I both agree and disagree on the opponent having a say issue – if it was someone like Bones Jones they were fighting then yes, totally it’s up to them to fight back, but against a decorated collegiate wrestler who’s only intention is to hold on it is VERY hard to do much about it (GSP is another example of the effectiveness of dull wrestling – a fantastic striker who’s changed his gameplan to safety wins by wrestling, it works but it’s not entertaining to watch so it’s a double-edged sword).
I actually tried it when helping a friend teach his martial arts class the other week – I come from Karate/Kickboxing background mainly and now I have a desk job am sitting at 200lb (5’7"!) – In the MMA section of class I used my non-existent wrestling learned from watching MMA to nullify everyone in the class, I told them I was going to go for the grapple and they had to stop me, my timing and speed are still good so when I saw the opening I shot in and not one of them could do anything about it when I had hold of them – for an experienced wrestler this must be childs play… Two of those guys had held national titles in striking sports too, kinda sad.
yeah kinda sad but...
MMA is just he complete fighting game,,,, wrestling will dominate for a couple of years but the strikers will again work on their wrestling defense and even offense… in a few years strikers will evolve and win MMA titles…. seems to be an up n down trend,
See the Anthony Pettis/Shane Roller (WEC) fight for an example of this...
Roller was 3-time All-American at OK State and couldn’t get Pettis down consistently (like 1 for 8, or something) and Pettis ended up taking him down and finishing him.
Also see Okami/Munoz or any BJ Penn fight not including GSP or Frankie. I guess my point is we are heading in that direction, but it will take time. Wrestlers used to dominate the UFC (Coleman, Tito, Hughes, Lindland, Miletich, etc, etc, etc) but some rules were tweaked (headbuts) and guys evolved (GSP, A. Silva, etc).
We are in another era where wrestling is dominating again, but rules may change (more stand-ups for guys like Lentz), fighters will adapt (Aldo, Edgar, Dunham, Pearson, Pettis, Jones, etc.) and MMA will come out stronger in the end. The whole point of MMA is for this evolution to happen. Fighting styles take the best parts of each discipline and create the best fighting style for being dominant in your weight class.
Remember, it wasn’t that long ago the Machida was going to be the dominant force for ages to come due to his point karate and BJ had no chance to lose at 155. See how those turned out?
"Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is to not stop questioning." - Albert Einstein
I would love to see the yellow card rule that they used in Pride!
Anderson Silva is by far the number one P4P king!!! Even when he is losing a fight he still comes back and finishes for the win! GSP dominates the whole fight and still can't finish! LOL
I dont see it working
Unless they follow it up with a red card like football and dq the offender.
The likes of Fitch, Maynard etc are still gonna play to their strength and lay n pray and take a yellow card and 10% purse reduction, knowing they’ll make that up with a win bonus, and the only way they can win is lay n pray. It’s not suddenly gonna encourage them to swing for the fences standing instead.
If the crowd is booing.......
And you know Dana is gonna rape you verbally in the post presser, then a yellow card would be all the kick in the ass you would need to step it up. I mean look at Chael for example, he spent 20 mins of that fight on top of AS, but it was not boring for one second so this lay and pray stuff is only BS and the fighters who do it know what they are doing and need to be reprimanded when it occurs imo.
I like fighting.
I agree the Sonnen fight wasn't boring
for me that was more to do with shock at what was happening. In no way did Sonnen even come remotely close to finishing Silva. He very rarely postured up and had a real go at landing any big bombs to finish the fight “Fedor” style. He was just content to look busy landing little rabbit punches and play it safe.
I totally get what you are saying attakdog........
But you can’t tell me he didn’t connect with at least a half a dozen bombs in the 23 mins he controlled AS. I distinctly remember Chael connecting with some shots when AS was on his back and AS head was bouncing off the mat, and not to mention he dropped him at the start of the fight right?? C’mon now dog, you saw what i saw right???
I like fighting.
Yeah but they weren't bombs
If Vitor threw the same shots, would Silva still have been conscious? Not likely, Chael has pillow fists for sure.
Ok, lets seperate the two, the bombs I'm talking about are not the Hendo bomds you are talking about....
You are talking about a KO punch.
I like fighting.
Silva was on queer street AT LEAST twice in that fight...
some guys cut and swell up, others dont. A Silva doesnt. Genetics are a bitch.
"Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is to not stop questioning." - Albert Einstein
Yep.
Silva was as close to out on his feet in the first round as you can be, but he’s got all kinds of stoic and an unbelievable chin.
He didn’t even react to Chael’s first, long-range, telegraphed shot. He was completely fucked and didn’t recover for at least thirty seconds.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
No not Hendo bombs
Just big, tide turning punches, and Sonnen didn’t land any of those from top position and really go all out for the finish, thats my point.
I agree with Kdog. Sonnen put out a high volume but did not really posture up and deliver some wicked GnP.
"Friends and lovers lie endlessly, caught in the web of duty. Only enemies speak the truth.
-Stephen King
agreed.
the only thing different here from a fitch/maynard was A. his opponent (that alone was enough to keep most on their feet) and B. his lack of technique and sub-defense that the entire time he was “dominating” everyone watching knew the fight could do a 180 at any given moment…….
Yellow cards aren’t a horrible idea, but they can’t be applied like in Pride. There were a lot of crooked WTF moments in Pride. I doubt that kind of gangster shit would happen in the UFC, but you never know. I think one of the problems would still be the application of it as every ref would be different as they are now with the standups. I’m not sure it would change too much. It’s not a bad idea to try though.
Myth: Three Americans die every year from rabies. Fact: Four Americans die every year die from rabies.
Training has made massive gains in the last decade.
This is the issue. There appears to a steady increase in fighters willingness to approach a fight with the intent of winning on points. The focus is shifted from “How can I finish my opponent” to “How can I avoid my opponents strengths and limit my risks” for many fighters.
Saying that modern training has created this situation, as many do, seems to imply that its some form of natural progression. But how people train and the strategies fighters employ is not some natural progression that is out of the hands of individuals.
There are still plenty of guys, like Joe Lauzon (19-5 with all 19 wins by way of finish) and Kenny Florian (13-5 with 12 wins by way of finish) who show that if people have the desire to finish fights, its well and truly possible and just as likely as its ever been.
I just dont understand why there seems to be this belief that defense inherently develops more that offense which leads to these stale mates……….especially in light of the inverted triangles and ninja choke’s we’ve seen spring up.
The most rational explanation to me is sadly a bit of a cliche:
Wrestling based fighters who have grown up focused on controlling their opponents and maintaining dominant position. They are able to continue to do this in MMA fights and subsequently their safest path to victory is to stay busy enough to avoid stand ups and do their very best to inflict damage without ever really trying to end the fight and taking very few, if any, risks of losing position in an attempt to end the fight. Historically BJJ has been a wrestlers enemy so they train their asses off to increase their submission defense, especially from the top and viola…….decision-fest.
Absolutely correct about wrestlers being conservative in their gameplans.
But really, there aren’t many weapons available to them without learning some high-level submissions and you can’t worry about submitting people until you’ve developed strong enough defense to prevent your random, generic Brazilian from laying there and capitalizing on your first position mistake.
This whole thing looks very natural to me. We’re already seeing some prominent wrestlers implementing ‘wrestling-compatible’ submissions like arm triangles and front chokes. We used to see guys come in with keylock variants, but they’re too easy to defend and they create reversal opportunities, so we don’t see them too often.
Just think of the Maia/Miranda fight. Maia went bananas looking for submissions, but he didn’t properly lock down position first so he lost dominant position every blinkin’ time he went for a finish. If you’re up against a guy who can make you pay for that loss of position, it’s not so easy to just give up dominance for a 20% chance at finishing the fight then and there.
The wrestlers will develop better and better sub offense. There’s just no way it doesn’t happen, and like I said, we’re already seeing some indications that it is swinging that way.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
bullshit
gomi just ko’d tyson griffin whos never been finished, the lw division is in deep dark unentertaining place right now
lmfao lets put it like this
gray has finished himself just as many times as he has finished his opponent
The Red Wings will come back stronger
RESTORE THE ROAR 2010 Detroit Lions
by GOLDIGGAH on Aug 31, 2010 3:38 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Rec'd
Oh and as a Nebraska fan I’ll be rooting for the Lions this year too. :) SUUUUUUUUUHHHHH!!!
Hadoken!!
i cant wait for next week
after seeing suh almost decapitate delhomme lol
The Red Wings will come back stronger
RESTORE THE ROAR 2010 Detroit Lions
He doesn't need to KO them.
He can do a submission, or stand and bang. Anything instead of being a blanket.
Riding the Brock Train..
Jon Fitch, Gray Maynard and Chael Sonnen can suck it. If I want a blanket I'll buy it in the store, not on PPV.
GSP and Rashad are getting close to joining this list.
grey maynard
diaz has finished fights. he is finishing fights. florian is finishing fights. what the hell is he even talking about? it’s not that he decisions all the time, it’s the fact that at no point in any of his fights does it ever feel like the fight could possibly end before the last bell. unless he knocks himself out again. when can anyone say that grey maynard has tried to finish a fight?.
that is what makes him boring.
frankie edgar may not finish but at least he is exciting. and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot. he just tooled one of the best fighters ever with probably the best chin in mma.
ugh. he is the only fighter in mma that i can’t stand listening to or watching fight.
Maynard = Lightweight GSP
He will be champion soon, deal with it guys.
BJ Penn is the biggest waste of talent in MMA history. Like usual, my pick was wrong and I blame a certain pudgy Hawaiin for my own short comings when it comes to talent selection. As it stands BZ – 3 Freenow82 – 1.
Yes, I said it, "deal with it"
Who was that again that was making fun of that phrase? I remember laughing really hard.
BJ Penn is the biggest waste of talent in MMA history. Like usual, my pick was wrong and I blame a certain pudgy Hawaiin for my own short comings when it comes to talent selection. As it stands BZ – 3 Freenow82 – 1.
was worbs
A few months ago…I remember that as well
Activia; now with bullshitifus ridicularus
by salamagogo on Aug 31, 2010 9:33 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree with Maynard
Whether you think he’s boring is another issue BUT he’s getting the job done. Guys like Huerta, Florian or Diaz are NOT being finished. Yeah Gomi recently finished Tyson Griffin but how often has that happened? In an exciting fashion? NOT OFTEN.
I still can’t believe some people are questioning Frankie Edgar.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
I Don't Know...
I think the lack of finishing in fights is not so much because of lack of strength or any of that. In fact, I can tell you Frank Edgar and a few other lightweights are VERY strong.
I think the lack of finishing is coming from the fact that the talent is getting better and as the talent gets better fighters are both eager to not make a mistake and are skilled enough to get out of trouble.
For instance, if Edgar was one dimensional, how did he get out of BJ’s guard when in the past that was sure fire win for BJ? Edgar like every other serious fighter is becoming more well rounded. This generation of MMA fighter is not just a “Mixed Martial Artist” or a “Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Specialist”. This generation of fighter takes in the wrestling, the boxing, the BJJ, the Muay Thai and they are well versed in all of it.
When you have that skill, it takes either an extremely skilled fighter to submit you based on a bad mistake you made. When you have that skill, you also have the strength to get out of most predicaments.
I don’t think the lack of finishes is a sign of a boring division, I think it is everybody stepping up their game.
As for Maynard, there is no way he beats Edgar this time. You guys act like he dominated Frankie last time when in fact it went to the judges scorecards on a split decision. Now that Frankie has assembled Team Edgar, Maynard will not match Frankie’s speed or boxing. So Frankie has added more to his arsenal since the last time they fought and that will make all the difference.
I wouldn’t doubt me on this…at least in regards to this fighter.
I disagree...
Penn stopped Kenny, Sanchez and Joe, Maynard just fought Kenny and the fight bored me, yes he won but it was still boring, if Maynard would fight Stevenson and Sanchez it would be a boring win, opposed to Penn who destroyed the both of them. Gomi has 2 fights in the UFC, one win and one loss but both were exciting as hell. If Gomi won both of them by wrestling I would not get excited to watch him.
I would love to see a "Finishing" Bonus
Similar to Fight of the Night, Sub of the Night, KO of the Night. I know they already double their purse for the win but how about an added incentive to finish the guy? There still may be a more spectacular finish that deserves KO or sub of the night but you’d still get more coin for at least finishing off your opponent.
This might lead to guys taking more chances vs the lay n pray or wall n stall, etc.
I get it – it may seem redundant to the FOTN, KOOTN or SOTN but it would be added incentive to at least TRY to finish their opponent. Something I don’t think is always happening.
Agreed
It’s not helping Fitch at all to keep winning when he’s boring as shit and no one wants to watch him. He’s on a tear with only 1 loss to GSP in the past 7 years and it still hasn’t put him into the title picture more than once. In fact, I think he’s been on the undercard in the past year or so.
He NEEDS to finish people to stay in the spotlight. A finishing bonus might help him. Although I doubt it. LOL.
I have said that for awhile
They give the guys on TUF 5000 bones for a finish (at least I think that has become standard now each season). Why not do that all the way around throughout the fight card and give out the big bonus for fight of the night? I t makes too much sense.
by Mayhem chimpanzee on Aug 31, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks, Gray, for informing us that you are not actually a boring fighter. Now that you have clarified that, I will look forward to your fights.
"Give a man a match, and he'll be warm for a minute, but set him on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
Fan of: Cole Miller, Dentist Neer, Alan Belcher, Bones Jones, Frank Mir
Amen, brother.
"Friends and lovers lie endlessly, caught in the web of duty. Only enemies speak the truth.
-Stephen King
I was writing something clever, but now I don't know what it was.
"A lot of times, you beat a person who beat a person who can beat you. I mean, it doesn’t make any sense." – Joe Rogan
Word.
Yes they are hard to finish…
But, for fucks sake, Maynard doesn’t even try. When is the last time someone though “Damn, Maynards GnP is brutal!”
Maynard is becoming a big whine bag of excuses. HAving trouble finishing? try hitting someone hard for once instead of just laying on them. And no, “slams” don’t count.
I like watching Gray fight.
He stays busy. Frankie on the ground used to be hard for me to watch, but he’s getting better. Staying active. I dont think there’s a whole lot of doubt that Gray will beat Frankie again. Just another UFC champ who wrestled at Michigan State.
True fans appreciate good fights/fighters ...
I enjoyed Frankies fights with BJ. It was awesome seeing Frankie pick him apart and stick/move.
Gray does the same. He does out there with a good gameplan and either secures a nice takedown or shows good hands with his opponents., Also , Kenny didnt engage..that is not his fault
Everyone stop bitching and if you wanna see people just go out there and brawl, go watch kimbo on youtube
your gonna tell me in 9 fights that have been decided by decision no ones ‘engaged’ gray?
Cmon, now. When have you said to yourself. Man Gray is really lookin to finish this thing here.
I dont even mind him all that much but its more frustrating because i believe if gray honestly really tried to take risks and finish fights he would get the job done more often then not. And its not like every risk he took would get him finished in the process either.
And please leave the “true fans” crap out of this. No one is in any position to say whos a true fan and whos not.
"its either going to be genius or its going to f***ing suck. Until I see the first cut I have no idea. But you know what? Neither does anybody else"
Rory 'The Waterboy' Macdonald
Thiago 'Pitbull' Alves
Yushin 'Thunder' Okami
Mauricio 'Shogun' Rua
Dominick Cruz
Dana's nightmare come true
Maynard is so boring that it rubs off on his opponent. I have never seen Florian that boring, even when he fought Sherk he tried harder. Maynard’s interviews are even more boring than his fights. Dana is crapping and cursing himself that he promised the winner a title shot. Once Maynard becomes champion, he is going to beg GSP to saw off one of his limbs and fight at LW. Either that, or he’ll stick steroids up Aldo’s bum to make him a LW.
formerly the original UFCAddict... back when mania used to keep score of how many comments we made. Currently ranked 22nd on UFC.com fantasy picks.
Kinda makes me think about soccer
If you take a look at the scores when the sport began, you’ll get 30×0, 20×0 from the dominating teams, as an opposite to todays low scores. I know these are completely different sports, but my point is every sport, be it group sport, mental sport or combat will have tougher competition as it builds in popularity and number of adepts. That effect added to those points already made about the LW division just makes it even more likely to fights to end that way.
Still, there are decisions and decisions. One thing is Stephan Bonnar vs Forrest Griffin, or a Wand vs Chuck decision, and a whole different story is a fight like Fitch vs Alves.
"A lot of times, you beat a person who beat a person who can beat you. I mean, it doesn’t make any sense." – Joe Rogan
Word.
i completely agree with gray
I posted a similar comment after gsp/hardy
U will start to less and less finishes as competition gets better and better!! Especially in title fights and contenders!
I'm gonna go home, watch DirecTV, drink bud light and ride my Harley Davidson!!
by Newfie3 on Aug 31, 2010 10:59 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
@OJR
I find it comical that you say Fitch doesn’t have the tools to finish guys. You are a complete idiot if you truly believe that. He has a blackbelt from Dave Camarillo and has finished multiple guys. Look at the fights he hasn’t finished, they are fighters that don’t get finished. Also, the last person to finish tiago alves was Fitch.
Erik,
Fitch has 23 wins. 13 of them were by decision. 10 of them were finishes.
That is less than 50%, right?
His last 8 victories were by decision. His last stoppage victory was in 2007.
I like Fitch and I think he is the 2nd best WW in the UFC (behind GSP). I picked him over Alves with complete confidence in their rematch.
Its ok that you are a fan of Fitch but don’t be delusional.
Next time, come better prepared for a debate. Thanks.
Signed,
Complete Idiot
"Friends and lovers lie endlessly, caught in the web of duty. Only enemies speak the truth.
-Stephen King
Ha! A blackbelt.
He has not demonstrated any skills close to being a black belt. I would have loved to see that testing session. As much postional dominance as he can gain with his wrestling, he hasn’t showing much of anything for acumen. Adversely, look at a guy like Dustin Hazelett and what he was doing as a purple belt. Professional fighters for the most part are AWARDED belts based on mostly promotional aspects. They are more often than not promoted because it helps the status level of the fighter which in turn helps their gyms’ publicity. “Hey look at our pro fighter. He’s a black belt. Come workout here.” I emphasized ‘awarded’ because no-namers in all these gyms actually work and EARN their’s.
by Mayhem chimpanzee on Aug 31, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
What did you debate? So you admit he has the tools to finish guys. Also you never answered the question of the people he fought how many of them get finished. And a few of his last fights where on a couple days notice.
Fitch doesn't finish people and most of the time he doesn't even try.
Debating otherwise is impossible.
Noons does not have power in his hands. Maybe his knees but his hands do not have KO power. they’re good enough to cut up and swell up gurgel’s face, but he won’t be ko’ing gurgel tonight.-STAK
Erik - I am going to assume that you are close to Fitch or you are new to the concept of rebuttals. Feel free to have the last word as its clear you are either new at this or just not very good.
"Friends and lovers lie endlessly, caught in the web of duty. Only enemies speak the truth.
-Stephen King
Then why doesn't he???
Does he just prefer pressing his body against a fellow man for 15 minutes straight and giving them the occasional tickle punch instead?? He does it because he doesn’t have the tools to take out anyone in the top 20 nowadays and he doesn’t even try.
There is no arguing with you abouts his stats. I would love to see him finishing guys. But, how can you blame him for taking guys down. he has been fighting guys with good stand up.
No-one blames him for taking the fight down, that's his strength
but he doesn’t do anything when there. His ground and pound is non existant and his McBlack belt off Dave Camarillo looks pretty worthless as I’m struggling to remember the last time he even attempted a submission, let alone got one.
AND
more fighters are considering it more of a business, then a passion. At that point they fight safer, in a, just win, attitude. Same as boxing has had for some time.
Fitch Hasn't Shown That He Can Finish Fights...
That’s what makes him soooo boring to watch. Far moreso than Gray or Frankie. Go look at the stats and see how many strikes Fitch throws while wrestling… or doesn’t throw for that matter. He’s boring and couldn’t finish a paraplegic.
That would be interesting if the ref decided to stand that one up
by Mayhem chimpanzee on Aug 31, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
it's an evolution
he’s right in one way
the sport is evolving
and training and techniques have to evolve too
there is a reason why pro-wrestling is now entertainment instead of a sport
watching long drawn-out wallow-fests just doen’t draw a paying crowd
and hasn’t for way over half a century.
People pay to see fights won with a finish
KO sub or stoppage.
Physical chess is great for die hards like me
but to put money down
I feel they expect to see a finish
so MMA must evolve
drill train, practice
finishing fights
which means taking chances
you might indeed get caught
but you could have a spectaular finish
and get paid more the next time out
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