Does Frankie Edgar loss at UFC 118 change BJ Penn's legacy?
by maskedmadman on Aug 29, 2010 1:48 PM EDT
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It's long been a given that BJ Penn is one of the greatest fighters of all time. We hear it from Mike Goldberg and Joe Rogan every time he fights in the Octagon and he's a multiple time world champion in two weight classes. But after losing two in a row, is it time to reevaluate where Penn stands in the annals of MMA history? Jonathan Snowden, who wrote a book about the history of MMA, thinks so:
The raw numbers stand out like a sore thumb. In title fights, BJ Penn is a pedestrian 5-5-1. For every big fight he wins, he loses one in turn. The true greats of the sport, your Georges St. Pierres, your Matt Hughes, your Frank Shamrocks, your Fedor Emelianenkos, are defined by rising to the occasion. When the fights get tougher, these men only get better. Not so with BJ Penn.
BJ Penn is a front runner. We learned that for the first time against Jens Pulver at UFC 35. Crowned as champion before even stepping into the cage, Penn had no answer for Pulver's heart and determination. When the fight got to the point where it demanded each man expose his very soul to walk away the winner, Penn faltered. Pulver stepped forward. That was the difference.
Sports Illustrated's Josh Gross agrees:
About that "best ever" tag that follows Penn wherever he goes, it needs to be reconsidered. Most talented? Hard to argue he wouldn't qualify. But did he get the most out of his gifts? I don't think so. And you don't need to look further than Penn's career and the choices he made to understand why.
For starters, he was fast-tracked. In just his fourth fight, Penn was given a title shot against Jens Pulver. He lost. There was no grooming the Hawaiian. Then, in his seventh fight, he received another title shot. This time a draw against Caol Uno. Two fights later -- after defeating Takanori Gomi in what remains his biggest win in the lightweight division -- Penn moved up a class to fight top welterweight Matt Hughes. That victory may have been the worst thing that happened to Penn. It fed into an obsession resulting in his multi-weight excursion. Two fights later he was at 185. Next, a bout at light heavyweight versus Lyoto Machida. Back to middleweight and then a return to 170, where he lost consecutively to Georges St. Pierre and Matt Hughes.
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i cant believe this stuff..The media soaked up BJs the last few years and falls on hard times and you guys turn your backs on him.
your still the best BJ!
JuniorFamilia.com for my BJJ Journey.
I’m a huge Penn fan and what he is saying is hard to argue
Only sailors use condoms, and im a f&*king pirate!!!
by LOKIE on Aug 29, 2010 12:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Josh Gross said it best...
“Most talented? Hard to argue he wouldn’t qualify. But did he get the most out of his gifts? I don’t think so.”
That pretty much sums it up.
by Collin4mma on Aug 29, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
just to clarify that’s what I was saying was hard to argue
Only sailors use condoms, and im a f&*king pirate!!!
by LOKIE on Aug 29, 2010 12:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
They ALways Say
You can’t teach heart and BJ has NEVER showed heart. Also, he surrounds himself with yes men. Training with Justin McCully and Rude Boy are never going to be equal to training with Xtreme Couture. Now or never has passed BJ, you had all of the opportunity in the world to be the Ali of MMA and you have officially blown it. 15-7-1. 0-2 against GSP in 170, 0-2 in a row against Edgar in 155.
As a shallow, spoiled crybaby that consistanly disrespects his opponents who defeat him, I LOVE THIS!
Nothing Ever Changes When Nothing Ever Changes
Yep...
I don’t think Snowden is saying BJ was always crap or anything like that. But looking at it in black and white, it’s hard to say BJ got the most out of his natural talents.
True.
It seems to come down to heart with BJ. Whenever he faces someone he can’t dominate, you can start to see him break down. It happened in the last GSP fight and it happened last night too. After the 3rd he just looked like he accepted that he was gonna lose.
by naturalshadow on Aug 29, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
It's kind of like chuck, BJ has got so confident in his stand up that he believes he can beat anybody standing
BJ stated before he was ready to face a little bit better Edgar and he did, the problem is BJ didn’t look like he changed anything and was the same BJ from last fight.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth - Mike Tyson
I can see the comparison, but....
Chuck never gave up in a fight. Chuck was able to beat everyone standing (except his kryptonite-Rampage) until his chin could no longer hold up after years of fighting with a dangerous, but highly exciting style.
by naturalshadow on Aug 29, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
ZI agree with that statement about Chuck. His body gave up on him before his heart did. BJ…I dunno. He looked like he was trying to fight the same fight as Penn/Edgar I whereas Frankie made adjustments.
But I think Page had his number in the stand up before, and beat a prime Chuck
As Rua would have too, but as far as Franklin goes I agree.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth - Mike Tyson
I think I would have to disagree
Chuck has great stand up, but I think these guys he has been losing to would have beaten him in is “prime”
Rua is a much better fighter than him and would have beaten him whenever.
Rampage beat him twice in his prime.
Rashad is just a better all around fighter and proved to be too quick for chuck.
Jardine: Chucks chin wasn’t to blame it that fight, considering it didn’t end in KO. Jardine just had the better game plan and good enough stand up to not get KOed by Chuck.
Rich Franklin, in my opinion, is one of the best in the sport and would have beaten at any point of Chucks career. His only KO/Tko losses are to Vitor, Anderson, and Machida.
by thegr8stkybrdwarrior on Aug 29, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know about Franklin
Chuck was owning him and Franklin was never known to have KO power. Chuck got hit by Wandy harder and more often and he still stood and in my opinion between Wandy and Franklin Wandy won the fight on my score card. Rashad poses problems but Chuck in his prime I think beats him, Page has his number like I said because he is one of the few fighters that can stand toe to toe with Chuck.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth - Mike Tyson
Maybe true
but there are a lot more fighters that I think can stand toe to toe with Chuck.
Rampage, Shogun, Machida, Silva (both), Jardine (never would have thought it but they matched up well I guess)
I also think Bones Jones could stand with him. Honestly most good strikers can stand with him. Out of all his KO wins, the only impressive striker he ko/tkoed was Overeem. His other wins against guys who have been known to have above level striking went the distance. All of those highlight reel knock outs were against grapplers.
by thegr8stkybrdwarrior on Aug 29, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Again with the bullshit myth’s, Chuck has outstruck alot of top strikers like Overeem, Vitor, Wand, Pele, Metzger saying that he only outstruck grapplers is simply a lie.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
by Nightwhistler on Aug 30, 2010 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions
He did not only outstrike grapplers..
but after having five comfortable wins in a row against non strikers, and not having to face a dangerous striker since 2004, he seemed to believe that he was invincible like his fans did, and paid the price for not changing his fighting style, which was only good enough for Wandy who just wanted to stand up and be punched in the face, and then Rashads knockout finished him off after that.
Bull shit myths
Who said he only outstruck grapplers. Cuz I didn’t, I said the only great striker he KOed was Overeem. Never said he didn’t beat other strikers. Don’t try to make up an argument and claim I made it
by thegr8stkybrdwarrior on Aug 30, 2010 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with Puck Head and Nightwhistler
Rampage just had his number. Reminds me of Hughes/Hallman. I would have loved to see Rua vs. Chuck back in the day.
In his prime I think Chuck would have beaten Rashad. I think he would have killed Franklin, and they never would have made that fight when they were both champs.
People tend to forget how dominant someone is/was in this sport VERY quickly. When Chuck was in his prime he was destroying people, and outside of Rampage, nobody was able to even make him blink with their hardest shots. He had an iron chin, and in a way that became his undoing. He never bothered to worry much about defense because he never had too. The problem is that he fought that way for years and years, and eventually his body couldn;t take the damage anymore.
by naturalshadow on Aug 31, 2010 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I love BJ
but I can’t say he is the best anymore. Most natural talent? Absolutely! But guys with harder work ethics pass him up as they continue to grow as a fighter. When a guy goes in and gives a lackluster heartless performance and still ends up lasting all 5 rounds, its obvious that he has the skills to beat his opponent. But this is twice now that he lost to a guy he should have beat. There are no excuses and just saying that he has the skills to be the best is just not enough anymore.
Is he one of the best p4p fighters in the world? I don’t really think so anymore, he no longer holds a belt in any weight class and he is coming off of back to back losses.
Is he a legend in Martial Arts? Absolutely! He is a decorated champion who has beaten some of the best that mma has ever seen. And in my opinion, he accomplished the greatest feat in all of sports when he wont the BJJ championships.
by thegr8stkybrdwarrior on Aug 29, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Is Penn one of the sport's all-time greats?
Absolutely! That’s a silly question. Does he have the same fire and motivation that others lumped into that category do…not at this point and I’m not sure he really ever has. It seems to me that at this point in his career he doesn’t have the inner drive to do what he is doing. His career decisions have been lead by ego and has lead him all over the place. Even still with his ego it has taken an army to keep him focused. His talent cannot be denied but remember when he said he planned on defeating GSP and then retiring right there on the spot…that juice of trying to reclaim or salvage something is gone. His legacy at 155 is solidified for me though…if he wants to jump off of cliffs from here on out then have at it.
Yesterday we saw that his heart isn't in the game anymore.....
despite all the talent in the world, it’s like when it’s time to step up and guys bring heart…..he falters. Technical brilliance stands above all in fighting IMO but you can make up for a lot of it with heart. BJ has never had that difference maker when guys brought skills to match his or at least outpoint him. Is he an all time great? I don’t know if we evaluate his resume – i still think Gomi did better than him during his reign and i guess IMO still stands as the best LW of all time. Would i put him in a HOF? No not really there is no consistency to him at all. I always reference a guy like Big Nog for HOF status because he’s not as popular and has big faults in his game yet no one can question what he did against top guys for nearly a decade. BJ has big wins but so do a lot of other guys. To me you have to be in there time in and out putting top flight competition away in order to be an all time great. Is he a legend? Sure in the same way that of Jens or Couture – a very notable fighter for what he did but definitely not the best. I will admit it too that i for one was one of the guys despite not liking him thought would be the most dominant LW of all time after getting a streak going. Yesterday was very revealing about his entire career which is strange because you rarely see one single moment that wholly capsulates a man and his career in the fight game.
Big Nog for Life
Inventor/supporter of "Gleison Tibau to Featherweight" movement.
by NNR (formerly NameNotRequired) on Aug 29, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
great post im watching it now and bjs just giving up!hes got no answer for the answer so hes quitting.
"whats the difference if Bruce Springsteen is his shidoshi?"
He needs a camp that will get on his ass.
he needs to leave Hawaii if he wants to be a great.
Facebook is for gays!
But he is a brat...his camp and his handlers are exactky what he wants.
I don’t see him sticking with another camp at all. He doesn’t want to be uncomfortable at all.
I agree with you btw but it won’t happen.
this.....
i personally think he’s gonna hang it up. He probly just wants to hang out with his wife and daughter…….he’s never been that kind of fighter to begin with and like even the great Cro Cop said – that spartan lifestyle wears on you.
Big Nog for Life
Inventor/supporter of "Gleison Tibau to Featherweight" movement.
by NNR (formerly NameNotRequired) on Aug 29, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I was thinking he might retire too.
He doesn’t have a lot of options. I don’t see him fighting at LW with no chance of a title fight for 2 years. He either goes to WW or quits. It’s too bad.
Noons does not have power in his hands. Maybe his knees but his hands do not have KO power. they’re good enough to cut up and swell up gurgel’s face, but he won’t be ko’ing gurgel tonight.-STAK
BJ Penn is the worst of the best.
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by Thats It For you! on Aug 29, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good fighter but certainly not a legend, and never a top p4p fighter.
He is overrated with a pretty damn bad record, just like Couture.
Both of them gets too much praise.
by Lester The Pimp on Aug 29, 2010 12:23 PM EDT reply actions
The Pudgy prodigy exposed
BJ is just an average fighter who was exposed again by the “Answer”. If Pudgy wants to get better he should change his camp and lose the big head and attitude, maybe Jackson is accepting applications for average fighters who want to get their game back.
Greats dont lose all the time and then whine about it!
One of the best of all time, maybe at best. He doesnt belong in the same sentence as GSP or Anderson Silva. He is a poor sport and a whiner and I think that takes away from being one of the greats. He doesnt train hard, his conditioning is always suspect. He loses, gives respect and love aftre the fight and then a week later the excuses start to come out.
I agree with Lester, good fighter but definitely not a legend. Disagree with Lester Couture is a legend, he is what the sport should be about, win or lose he has dignity and respect for the sport all BJ does is whine and talk shit!
For me,
He is a legend but he’s still young(31) to make a run at the HOF. There is just way too much hype behind him and the bad thing about it is that he believes in the hype.
Facebook is for gays!
He's young and done. He is a fighter beat by his own laziness. This thread nailed it. Bj is a gifted fighter that never rose against the toughest comp.
It takes heart to be an all-time great, and bj has rarely shown any heart.
by Conan the Barbarian on Aug 30, 2010 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Congrats Frankie...
Hawaii still loves you BJ!! Keep your head up. Bj doesnt need to prove anything else in this sport he is a legend for sure and Frankie is just the new generation. I hope we still get to see more fights out of BJ… BJ!! BJ!! BJ!! BJ!!
"When i first started fighting all i ever wanted was that lightweight belt. Now its much bigger... I wanna be the BEST EVER." -BJ PENN
I was a little dissapointed in BJ's performance. He again let Frankie dictate the fight. Frankie impressed me tho.
The problem is i still believe BJ destroys the rest of the LW division. I also think Maynard is a good match up for BJ.
"When i first started fighting all i ever wanted was that lightweight belt. Now its much bigger... I wanna be the BEST EVER." -BJ PENN
Maybe
For for a while after Silva beat him twice everyone talked about how Franklin could clear out the rest of 185lbs. Didn’t mean much though.
Nothing Ever Changes When Nothing Ever Changes
Plus
You don’t really want BJ running through title contenders. It would make it hard for Edgar to find anyone to fight.
Noons does not have power in his hands. Maybe his knees but his hands do not have KO power. they’re good enough to cut up and swell up gurgel’s face, but he won’t be ko’ing gurgel tonight.-STAK
running through who?
At this point I would have to say Edgar showed everyone how to beat BJ. They have to be careful who they put BJ against. It has to be someone he can beat… Otherwise they run the risk of losing him to retirement.
Bullets dodge Fedor.
He showed ZERO heart. When the going gets tough BJ lets the fight go. I think if he went super agressive on Frankie he might've actually landed something..
Frankie is fast little man
"When i first started fighting all i ever wanted was that lightweight belt. Now its much bigger... I wanna be the BEST EVER." -BJ PENN
I say BJ beats the entire LW division except Frankie.. STYLES MAKE FIGHTS
"When i first started fighting all i ever wanted was that lightweight belt. Now its much bigger... I wanna be the BEST EVER." -BJ PENN
I Say
Gray takes BJ. Been saying it a long time too.
Nothing Ever Changes When Nothing Ever Changes
I am not so sure about that actually.....
Frankie’s wrestling beat bj because he was chaining long sequences of takedowns until bj couldn’t defend all but the very last one. Much like in BJJ when you got multiple things setup at once and the guy can’t defned 5 things at once. Gray has never been great at chain wrestling. Because of how physical he is he’s never needed to learn that game. So him getting stuffed means he backs away like in his previous fights.
Big Nog for Life
Inventor/supporter of "Gleison Tibau to Featherweight" movement.
by NNR (formerly NameNotRequired) on Aug 29, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
oh definitely
Big Nog for Life
Inventor/supporter of "Gleison Tibau to Featherweight" movement.
by NNR (formerly NameNotRequired) on Aug 29, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus
We had a conversation before the first BJ/Edgar fight. I thought it was bullshit that Edgar got to fight for the belt and Maynard had a win over him. What you said that day still makes sense today, NNR. Frankie has boxing and wrestling, a straight up wrestler with no stand up won’t beat BJ.
Noons does not have power in his hands. Maybe his knees but his hands do not have KO power. they’re good enough to cut up and swell up gurgel’s face, but he won’t be ko’ing gurgel tonight.-STAK
Yes.
Gray would implement the GSP gameplan, rather than the quick/agile chain wrestling Edgar gameplan. And Gray is big/strong enough to do it.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
The other factor is speed
Gray doesn’t have Edgar’s speed. It pretty clear that this is an important factor in BJ’s losses to Edgar. It ties into wrestling, and chaining not only takedowns but striking combinations all together.
Yeah the speed is really the difference maker against Penn even on the takedowns
But even though I think BJ would beat Maynard, Maynard is a bigger problem for Edgar because of his style of grappling and strength. It will be a very interesting fight to see how things are played out and right now I’m 50/50 on who would win.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth - Mike Tyson
Don't you think Penn needs to change camp and maybe even leave Hawaii?
He has become too much one dimensional. All he wants to do is counter, counter, and counter.
Facebook is for gays!
Yes absolutely
Where have all the videos of him doing that weight training gone? He looked unstoppable against Florian and Sanchez. Then, like always, old habits creep back up and he stops getting after it like he should. He needs to train against top flight competition during his camps instead of being surrounded by yes men. Fighting the best on a day-to-day basis has paid dividends for all other fighters who’ve had the maturity to do it. We’ll see where he goes from here and, although I’m not a fan, I hope he can turn it around again.
…but I doubt it.
by PetrozellisJab on Aug 29, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
After the Hughes win his head too got too fat.
The only real possession you'll ever have is your character. — Tom Wolfe
Unlike Chuck, I think BJ will know when to step away
But 31 is hardly old, despite the mileage he’s logged. But to never be taken down in seemingly a decade, then get taken down repeatedly with ease in one match is quite interesting. Need to see how he fares against another opponent besides Edgar to better assess how shot he is.
Not just one match. GSP took him down whenever he felt like it.
The difference is that people expect that from GSP.
by naturalshadow on Aug 29, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah but it took gsp over a round it took edgar under a minute
"whats the difference if Bruce Springsteen is his shidoshi?"
That was by design, though
GSP wanted Penn to exert himself defending the takedown. You’re not defending the takedown if you’re already on the mat.
good call he did mention pushing him up against the cage to wear his shoulders out
"whats the difference if Bruce Springsteen is his shidoshi?"
Bj could always be taken down by a good wrestler
Most guys just showed him to much respect. Bj is far from done physically. He has the tools to be champ again, but I’m afraid he lacks the heart.
by Conan the Barbarian on Aug 30, 2010 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think this loss changes bj's legacy at all!
I still think him & gomi R the 2 top LW’s of all time. & I can’t wait for that rematch!
by d*locc on Aug 29, 2010 1:08 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
BJ is one of the BEST
Wow this is a joke.Bj is one of the best of all time.I use to train with him at Ralf Gracies back in the day.The man is unreal.He fought out of his wieght class for a long time yes,and was a champ.I thought he beat GSP in the first fight.HE beat Matt Hughes the first fight and was winning the 2nd until he gassed.He fought Machida to a desicion loss.Frankie never hurt him just out scord him with speed.Frankie is what Chuck was to Randy. Do you question Randys place in the UFC?
Agree nat dog. I think it's dum how people discredit the loser instead of giving props 2 the winner.
I got alot of respect for bj. He took his loss like man & gave Edgar all the props in the world. I think that’s alot coming from bj.
by d*locc on Aug 29, 2010 1:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
wtf are u talking about
gsp was kicking his ass in there 2nd fight stop being a ass
Sonnen Hows the McDonald's Black belt ?
by TheSpiderWin on Aug 29, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, a lot of us do question Randy's greatness
Couture is special for his longevity and big victories, not for his dominance or near-invincibility as a fighter, like Silva, GSP, Fedor.
Still, I agree that Penn will remain among the best ever at LW. He just never reached that lofty P4P status where you think his fighting IQ, skill, and technique would be dominant no matter what body size it was put into.
he will be remembered as a great fighter and a great champion. he may be remembered as one of the all time greats too. especially if edgar and gsp go on to establish dominate reigns or if he can become champion again. unfortunately i think his legacy will also be forever clouded as the fighter that couldve been the best ever, but didnt always train hard enough.
BJ needs change
There were some parts of the fight where he looked confused by Edgar. He didn’t have a plan let alone a back up plan and the way he trains isn’t getting it done anymore. He needs to look at going to a real camp instead of just going by his talent. The question is…Does he want it anymore? His actions speak louder than his words, he keeps saying that he wants to be the best, he just doesn’t live like an athlete.
agree Shady
BJ’s gameplan looked no different than last one and he never changed anything between rounds? Well he did get the takedown once but other than that he looked much like the BJ last time, and BJ was right Edgar was a better version than last time. BJ has so many tools but he he he must of believed he would do better striking? He needed to at least get Edgar in different positions to see what he could do becasue the stand up boxing Edgar had his number.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth - Mike Tyson
I thought BJ could have been more effective if he went to the takedowns earlier.
I was suprised at how much Edgar improved. He definately deserved to win that fight.
This is stupid
Snowden has the dumbest opinions of any mma writer. We live in a world with Jake Rossen and Thomas Rios, so that’s saying something.
BJ being even in title bouts as a reason for him not being great is ludicrous. And anyone who would bring it up is betraying the fact they don’t honestly evaluate the fights they see, they try to form an opinion they can back up with dumb little facts anyone could grasp.
But anyone who has seen BJ fight over the last ten years knows he’s a great fighter. Is it really hard to understand what an astounding accomplishment it was for him to beat Matt Hughes? For his first three title shots Penn had LESS THAN TEN FIGHTS. He faced guys who were established veterans: Uno, Pulver and Hughes. The one he beat is one of the greatest fighters to ever live, the one he lost to tapped after the bell, and the one he drew with anyone watching knew he beat three rounds to two (and had been fighting for like ten years).
He dominated Gomi, who was a Shooto star and one of the, if not the, top lightweight in Japan, before he went on to certainly become the top lightweight. He faced Rodrigo and Renzo Gracie at middleweight, way above his weightclass, and those guys are both good fighters. And he won. He fought a close decision against Machida, who had already beaten tough guys like Franklin and Bonnar and would go on to be UFC Champ at LHW.
He came back and fought GSP and beat him up in the first, to the point where GSP was quitting on his stool in between rounds and had to be motivated by his coaches to get back out there. BJ lost by a narrow margin to one of the best fighters on the planet. A weightclass above his optimal weight.
Then he fought Matt Hughes, (y’know the only guy to ever have two 4+ defense title reigns in the ufc. A weighclass above where BJ is best suited to fight), and he lost.
Then he moved back to LW and did the oh-so-important act of “avenging his loss” to Jens Pulver. He went on to finish Joe Stevenson, Sean Sherk, Diego Sanchez and Kenny Florian in his title run.
Then he fought a close decision against Frank Edgar, another great fighter, which many thought he won, and I think there were good arguments on both sides. Then they rematched and BJ lost decisively.
Long story short if you don’t know that BJ is one of the greatest of all time, it’s because you don’t know enough about MMA and you’re trying to lmake yourself ook like a real swinging dick by trotting out numbers, amounts of wins and losses of fights you’ve never seen.
Do us all a favor and shut the fuck up if you don’t know your shit.
by bundt on Aug 29, 2010 1:50 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Dude you left out the second GSP. You know it was the one............
where GSP didn’t just make Penn think about quitting on his corner, but actually did make him quit in his corner…….Here I will help remind you…………………….
Blame Canada, Blame Canada, With all their hockey hullabaloo, And that bitch Anne Murray too, Blame Canada,Shame on Canada...............
Nice pic - even his expression is similar to that of Lester's gif
10-08-28 BJ Penn exposed for the 7th time!!!!
by hairybumcrack on Aug 29, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, bundt. As soon as a future HOF loses to a young, hungry lion - he is immediately declared overrated or a waste of talent or he is washed up. All of the sheep here will attempt to back up this theory by doing some revisionist history.
"Friends and lovers lie endlessly, caught in the web of duty. Only enemies speak the truth.
-Stephen King
by the way
If you have to look at fight finder or wikipedia to argue about one of the most famous, widely-seen and best fighters who ever lived – you don’t know your shit
i love how...
i love how internet tough guys declare that if you disagree with them, that that means you don’t know what you are talking about.
formerly JB, trying to figure out this whole new SB deal. oh, and another thing; i'm not impressed by your performance.
It's one of the first rules of debate suppression.
Look it up. Any radical political group does the same thing, and have for all of human history.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
BJ will come back
I disagree that BJ gave up in that fight. He probably should have gone for takedowns right away but when he saw that standing was not working he did go for takedowns and got them, he was trying to get a takedown and submission he just couldn’t. Here is what I truly see with BJ….
He out struck most of his opponents at 155 all of whom he had a reach advantage over or even reach with. Those opponents did not try to take BJ down because of his feared BJJ and known takedown defense. Frankie Edgar had a great game plan and could get in and out with strikes and out point BJ. He also was not afraid to try takedowns. BJ beat most of his opponents before the got in the cage. If he is smart BJ will stay at 155 win 2 fights against anyone and hope Maynard is champ so he can get another crack at the belt. Or go fight Hughes again.
But the thing that most people will agree on
is that BJ’s aura is gone. He got beat by Edgar the first time (there were reasonable arguments that BJ, in fact, won the first fight but he got an L hung around his neck), and there was all the opportunity in the world for him to come back fired up, focused and dedicated to re-taking his position atop the MMA LW scene.
A big part of why these guys continue to be indestructible is because of the perception that they are indestructible. Fedor. Anderson. BJ. None of these guys’ careers will look the same going forward, and at least in the cases of BJ and Fedor, you can’t attribute it to age. They’re both still fairly young for MMA or any athletic competition, really.
People used to come in to a Fedor fight absolutely terrified. Ditto Anderson and BJ. Now that there is a path to victory over each one (Fedor less than the others, he truly did get caught while the others guys got one-sided poundings), people will think they can win using the same gameplan. The key there is that people will think they can win, compared to before when it looked like climbing Mt. Everest without oxygen.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
I could give two shits what anyone else thinks
Especially snowden. In the end all that matters is my own opinions about who I wish to consider a legend. Bj Penn is a fighter who has gotten me excited about the sport. He will always be one of my favorites. Great night for Frankie. Props to the champ.
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again."
by Deuce02 on Aug 29, 2010 3:01 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Well done Deuce
I was wondering what you were going to say. And fuck Snowden. That guy only writes articles he thinks will generate comments and views, which he is very good at. Guy’s a deucher.
BJ sucks.
by PetrozellisJab on Aug 29, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Another thing I'm really enjoying
Is the amount of cross over between people who say BJ’s legacy is hurt because he left the UFC, and people who used to argue that PRIDE had all the greatest fighters and UFC was a B-league promotion at the time BJ Penn left it
its like critical thinking and irony and foreign concepts to mma fans
respect.
bj penn is the greatest lightweight of all time but today,frankie is the best…much respect to frankie..i think its time bj looks for a different camp..a camp who will push bj to his limits..bj has been fighting top guys..he never fought an easy opponent,his whole record has big names..i still think hes top 10 p4p fighter..he just needs to put himself in a camp where he is disciplined…we all thought bj was going to be different from the first fight but he looked the same..in my opinion,bj has only one weakness and thats conditioning..
That's not his only weakness...
BJ’s biggest weakness is his poor mental game, and his conditioning is merely a symptom of a greater flaw. BJ doesn’t train like a champ- he hasn’t gotten better as a fighter or added more things to his arsenal- he came to the game with all world BJJ and great hands, and that’s all we’ve really seen from him, and we haven’t seen them grow in leaps and bounds.
He’s a head case- his energy is so taken up with rehashing losses and managing the drama from his camp that he’s not fully mentally present to deal with his fights, and you can see that at least half his fights (wins OR losses) he’s just not fully there in the cage.
Like him or hate him, GSP’s determination to win is unrivalled, and he refuses to let himself get tied up with he said/she said stuff that BJ has to have to get up for fights. Trying to say Frankie intentionally disrespected him after winning the belt- puh-lease!
BJ has unreal tools, and he has a resume that includes wins over top names left right and centre, but his losses (aside the beatdowns from Hughes and GSP) could clearly have been wins if he was locked in. He could be the unquestioned best fighter on the planet, but he’s not and he never will be. To me that’s his legacy- it’s not that he’s not a great fighter, because he’s had a great overall career. He’s just not the greatest of all time, and he doesn’t belong in the GOAT discussion at any point.
Enjoyed the chat on this one!
its a sad day in hawaii..BUT
BJ lost to 2 LW FIGHTERS…..EVER..give me a break. his losses were only to greats. frankie fought a good fight and he shows that youth and speed are huge factors.
i just wish bj didnt try to mind fuck everyone by hinting he was going to take it to the mat and use his jitz. sucks because when he actually tried to use it, it was too late..i was hoping for an anderson/chael type finish.
we don’t always get what we want.
i hope he retires.
"i only want to be known as the best ever, is that too much to ask?" - BJ Penn.
right
i still think bj is the greatest lightweight of all time but today frankie is..much respect to frankie..like joe rogan said ,its just time for bj to change camps.a camp who will improve his conditioning.. he doesnt need to retire man..bj is a type of guy whos never scared of challenges..look at his record,gsp twice and matt hughes at welterweight,machida at heavyweight and like you said he only lost to two lightweights and hes a natural lightweight..hes a true fighter
very true ryoto
its just that i know he isnt going to change camps..he likes to be able to have things done his way. he wanted to KO edgar. charuto was screaming for bj to use his jits..
i just dont want him to become a fighter guys use to try and launch their status with by fighting..the “if fighter x beats bj,. he deserves blah blah because bj is one of the greats, but if bj wins its nada because he was supposed to win”..
i’ll always be a bj fan and support his decisions.
"i only want to be known as the best ever, is that too much to ask?" - BJ Penn.
ouch that hurts me to even type.
"i only want to be known as the best ever, is that too much to ask?" - BJ Penn.
Bottom line, penn looked aweful and edgar looked great
That was the worst bj penn I have ever seen, maybe other than the gsp/penn 2 fight. For the record I’m not a fan so I’m definitely not making excuses. His legs looked so skinny and he looked so slow, lethargic and didn’t burst onto the seen like his usual self. What happened to his legendary take down defense? Is edgar really that good? IMO bj had a poor game plan for this fight, he should have been very aggressive, mixed it up and have gone for repeated takedowns. I don’t want to take anything away from frankie he’s a great fighter, just that I know penn could do better. I agree that penn lacks mental toughness, when things start to go bad he loses steam, and is surrounded by yes men. Bj is better than we saw last night, he looked like crap, mellow relaxed bj = trouble for bj, angry agressive bj = trouble for his opponents.
Overrated indeed!
Yes BJ has great matural talent. BUT… he definitely lacks heart, desire and determination. Anyone with 2 eyes can’t argue that. Anytime someone puts up resistance or starts beating him you can see his whole fight dismeanor change. He looks like he dosen’t want to fight anymore. He kind of has a bully mentality, if you stand up to him he starts to wither. He didn’t outright quit last night but mentally you could see he did. His days as champ are over. All talent, no heart!
Calu
BJ is still a beast I think he just needs to work on his offensive wrestling more
He didnt go for one shot last night and if he did it was half ass.
Fedor "The Last Can Crusher" Emelianstinko finally falls at the hands of a washed up UFC Contender...the Irony:)
o come on...
Randy couture is alegend and he’s lost like ten times so this is bs…so the guy got beat tonite,no one goes undefeated in mma..its not like he’s gotten beat up his last couple fights,he just lost his belt 1 fight ago and couldve won that,he got dominated tonite and he’ll comeback let’s leave it that, can’t take away a guys legacy because for the first time at lightweight he was dominated,but before that he reeled off 3 title defenses including the win to get the title
"A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything" -Malcolm X
by Mr.MMA on Aug 29, 2010 6:49 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Fair or not,
what separates BJ and Couture most strikingly is their work ethic and inner drive. BJ doesn’t really have a work ethic we can find, while Couture is a physical exercise freak.
I also liked Mike Tyson’s snippet on Couture, something like ‘Randy Couture is like one of those old school fighters. Even if you knock him out the first time, in the rematch he’ll come back at you acting like he knocked YOU out. BJ looked like he was starting at the bottom of the hill in this rematch. There was no fury, no passion and no swagger/confidence.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
should be endquote after: knocked YOU out.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
BJ is still by far the best light weight ever!
To speculate otherwise is buffunery!!! I hope and believe this isnt the end of BJ’s reign, as top P4P in the world. I think this was just a bad matchup for BJ nobody realized until they were in the cage. speed tends to beat BJ. Pulver had it in his prime, GSP was too fast and so was Frankie.
Frankie is BJ's cryptiniite
almost every great boxer has had 1. Ali, roy jones, mosely, holyfield, even couture, and Faber!… still all time greats! Even if BJ starts losing to guys like maynard and gueita, his legacy will be legendary. The guy who whopped Gomi in his prime and a undestuctable Sherk at the time, the guy who would fight anybody at any weight class. True Hawiian warrior. if u second guess that or dont respect that your whole perspective is wack!!!!!!!!!!
BJ
Too much confidence in his stand up against a smaller, quicker Edgar. Same fight, same result. Frankie’s name fits perfect……..the answer. He had an answer for everything thrown at him. When’s the last time you seen someone roll away with no effort when BJ had his back??? He flattened out Hughes and choked him out at 170…….Hughes……..one of the best wrestlers to ever fight in MMA. When BJ body locked him from behind, I though he was gonna take it….and then……….
I liked Edgar…….and I respect him even more now. I’d like to see him learn how to finish fights…….something guys like Florian and BJ have been doing their whole career.
I totally agree with the comment about Chuck and Randy………. Randy’s record doesn’t jump out at anyone, but he is who he is. He’s fought the who’s who of his divisions (s)…. so has BJ. Hate him all you want but he will leave a legacy in the sport. He’s lost some shitty decisions in my opinion, including the last fight to Edgar. It was close and BJ was not impressive, but I thought he won the fight 3-2. This fight though……he clearly lost every round.
shfd
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armbar give me my sig im ready to take my loss like a man lol
I missed the fights was going to watch them on a website and by mistake seen the outcome not sure if i can watch now lol.
Don't bother watching. BJ did the same crap in the 2nd fight that he did in the 1st one. Hoping for a big KO. Edgar looked crisp and really impressed.
"Friends and lovers lie endlessly, caught in the web of duty. Only enemies speak the truth.
-Stephen King
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