UFC Quick Quote: Keith Kizer has a message for Joe Rogan ...
by Jesse Holland on Dec 7, 2010 10:29 AM EST
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"If Joe Rogan wants to get on the air and call people names, that’s his business. I’m not going waste my time responding to that. They always say that ‘the UFC has nothing to do with judging.’ Well guess what, they’ve got a big fight coming up in Canada called Koscheck vs. Georges St. Pierre - the UFC and Marc Ratner are flying Tony Weeks up there as a judge. C’mon, Joe. How about some honesty? They’ve taken 90% of our officials with them overseas, as they should. That’s not a knock on Dana [White] and Marc [Ratner]; they know what they’re doing ... Yeah, I have a problem with how they scored the third round. Definitely. I mean, they’re both very good judges which makes it all the more surprising ... There have been judges that we’ve had here who we’ve sent packing. It didn’t work out. Every judge needs to stay sharp, but everyone makes mistakes. You hear so many people cry ‘robbery’ about this and that. I get emails about it all of the time. I go back and watch the fight, and you say to yourself, ‘What? That wasn’t a robbery. The judges got it right!’ A lot of people were saying that about the Rampage vs. Machida fight. Even Dana White said that. You get people who love to overreact. Obviously there are people who want to feel superior than others, trash others. Maybe they are full of some self-hate, some self-pity, maybe that’s Rogan’s piece as well. There are ways to criticize professionally, ethically, effectively and legitimately. But then there are ways where you are just trying to make yourself look better."
Nevada State Athletic Commission (NSAC) Executive Director Keith Kizer (via MMAFA.tv) responds to Joe Rogan's recent rant on the quality of mixed martial arts judging following the controversial split decision win for Leonard Garcia in his TUF 12 Finale fight against Nam Phan back on Dec. 4 in Las Vegas. A majority of MMA fans and pundits, including UFC President Dana White and color commentator Joe Rogan, scored the contest in Phan's favor. Whose side are you taking in the battle for better officiating? Does Kizer have a logical explanation? Or does Rogan make the more convincing argument? Sound off, Maniacs.
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Kizer sounds like he is protesting too much. Own it and do something about it (or at least go through the motions).
"Friends and lovers lie endlessly, caught in the web of duty. Only enemies speak the truth.
-Stephen King
These judges should be tested and qualified before being allowed to score MMA matches.
It is obvious that most of them don’t understand what they are looking at, and I am willing to bet that approximately 90% of the current judges can’t accurately identify the various submissions currently utilized by fighters.
Not only that, I guarantee they can not identify the technical nuances used to set up takedowns, sweeps, passes, etc.
Hell, most don’t even think leg kicks should be scored as effective striking.
They are uneducated, and refuse to admit it.
’’They've done studies you know... 60% of the Time, it works every Time...’’ – Brian Fantana
Is there any way
to incorporate the compu-strike stats into the scoring? I don’t know how long it takes to get the final stats tallied…does it require someone watching the video over and over to count everything up? Not that you’d eliminate the judge’s subjective impressions, but augment them with stats.
"Give a man a match, and he'll be warm for a minute, but set him on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
Fan of: Cole Miller, Dentist Neer, Alan Belcher, Bones Jones, Frank Mir
Is MMA judging a full-time job or is it just a weekend gig for these guys? NFL and baseball officials are employed full time by the leagues and spend the days during the weeks and the offseason going over every scrap of game film from every possible angle to show each official what’s a foul and what isn’t. MMA judges need similar training.
Our lives change like the weather, but a legend never dies.
Good point! I think in the future when MMA has more money than that will/can happen.
I think that take downs are scored way way way too much! And if a fighter gets taken down, but then sweeps the other guy, it should be even. Takedowns shouldn’t score much if nothing is done with it unless it was a slam. Also, if a fighter gets a takedown with seconds left, it shouldn’t score anything. I’m sick of fighters doing that just to win the round.
Anderson Silva is by far the number one P4P king!!! Even when he is losing a fight he still comes back and finishes for the win! GSP dominates the whole fight and still can't finish! LOL
perfectly put
A lot of times takedowns just lead to neutrality. But for some reason they score big. It baffles me.
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile from them, and you'll have their shoes." - Jack Handy
by PSYQO78 on Dec 7, 2010 2:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
yea, a takedown.
is also many times an escape from the striking game. if you take someone down and have a bad ground game and do nothing other than control position you should get nothing.
het mode, het cloth från topp till tåu.
Are you sure about that?
I seem to recall hearing that the refs for the NFL have full time jobs aside from that.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
http://www.job-employment-guide.com/nfl-referee-salary.html
“The NFL official’s average annual income of USD 27, 000 is lowest when compared to the NBA officials earn about USD 128,000 per annum, the NHL officials earn USD139, 000 per annum and the major-league baseball officials earn about USD 141, 000 per annum. On the other hand, NFL officials are not full-time employees and work lesser as against the other sports. "
Seems baseball, yes, football, no.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
Just checked. NFL refs are not paid as full-time employees and have regular jobs, but they put in app. 20 hours per week during the season studying film from the previous game and they take exams throughout the offseason to keep rules fresh in their minds and stay current on new rules. So while it’s not full-time pay, preparation to officiate is essentially a year-round job. And it should be at least as stringent for fight judges.
Our lives change like the weather, but a legend never dies.
I don't think that's correct.
For example, here is referee Ed Hochuli’s “regular” job: http://jshfirm.com/custom.cfm?name=c_attorneydetail.cfm&id=7
"Give a man a match, and he'll be warm for a minute, but set him on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
Fan of: Cole Miller, Dentist Neer, Alan Belcher, Bones Jones, Frank Mir
I was watching XFC (i think) this weekend and Schiavello was quoting compustrike stats mid-round.
But theose can be biased as well because they just show the total strike/total power strikes. Not the effectiveness of those strikes. IE if fighter A lands a left hook, it is +1. If fighter B lands a left hook and floors the guy, it is +1.
EXACTLY
thats what I have been trying to say. Everyone is trying to say Compustrike can fix this and in my opinion its the problem! Your example is perfect, it only counts punches, not effective punches and being that I am sure Garcia threw and landed more than Pham, Pham should have won due to the EFFECTIVENESS of this striking.
Nothing Ever Changes When Nothing Ever Changes
Uh, the compustrike clearly favored Phan actually…so I’m pretty sure it would’ve helped.
"Give a man a match, and he'll be warm for a minute, but set him on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
Fan of: Cole Miller, Dentist Neer, Alan Belcher, Bones Jones, Frank Mir
I’d be really, really hesitant to score fights based on stats. It seems much too easy to be abused by savvy fighters/camps. We think point fighting is bad now, imagine if it actually existed lol.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
I agree with this myth
I could see the controversy that some(not all, Garcia also trains there) Jackson fighters would get into. “bore and score” would be the new phrase I’m sure.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
I've never seen fightmetric not reflect how the fight looked.
het mode, het cloth från topp till tåu.
Of course Compustrike can't fix things, but...
…officials could use Compustrike as a tool to help them form their decisions. No need to go so far as to base their decision on Compustrike’s stats.
Less complaining, more action
I don’t have an easy solution but surely doing anything is better than doing nothing. I agree Rogan went on a major rant but I felt some of it was justified
TRUTH HURTS sometimes
About time the commissions get some major heat for the current state of judging.
"I'm from the Fox News school of media discourse," explained White. "If you tell people your version of the truth enough times, and yell while you do it, eventually they start to believe it. Remember when I saved MMA?"
joes comments made them review the fight with the officals i think they should all be reviewed anyways no matter how rude it was those comments are going to causes changes for the better
by Ralph Gutierrez on Dec 7, 2010 10:42 AM EST reply actions
There have been judges that we’ve had here who we’ve sent packing. It didn’t work out. Every judge needs to stay sharp, but everyone makes mistakes
Care to explain why Cecil Peoples hasn’t been sent packing?
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
You're probably right :(
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
Rogan was angry, it's understandable
He watched a fighter lose a fight that he deserved to win. Everything he said is true IMO. Fighters should be able to let it go to a decision and be confident the judges will make the correct decision. When they get it wrong, people get angry and voice their opinion. A lot of people were thinking the same thing Rogan was he’s just in a position where everyone actually hears his opinion. I respect him for speeking his mind on the subject.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."-Albert Einstein
Kizer,
I don’t care how much confidence and conviction you put into this reply to Rogan, and I’m not a Rogan fan either, but c’mon dude. Get better judges, simple as that. These little mistakes that the judges make here and there cost the fighters thousands of dollars per mistake. We know Garcia will take his earnings, yes, but it’s obvious he doesn’t feel good about the win. And Nam….well, he’s still scratching his head. Rogan did go off yes, but for a good reason, and I totally agree with him for once.
so basically
“Joe Rogan hurt my feelings. UFC likes us. We’re human and we can be wrong. But we’re not wrong. Joe Rogan is insecure”
Should have read more like “Joe Rogan was unprofessional. We’re glad UFC likes us. We are human, we may make mistakes, but we’re working on them.”
"Remember that shit I gave you last week nigga? It's nothing nigga, it's nothin', it's nothing nigga, nigga it's nothing. This shit right here, nigga! This shit right here nigga, right here this shit nigga! This shit right here nigga!....This shit called deaf nigga!"
"That don't even sound attractive, you mean Ima hit it and die nigga?"
"Naw nigga, not death nigga, nigga DEAF! You hit this shit twice, you can't hear nothin'"
wasn't it Einstein who said
the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results??
Kizer needs to make changes to affect the outcome. Continuously defending a broken system and hoping the judging will miraculously get better is insane.
Not a broken system
Too much ambiguity in the scoring. It needs to be defined and clarified more then “effective strikes” and “effective grappling”.
I'll agree
I’ll say it’s a “flawed” system. The ambuguity comes in when there aren’t clearly defined scoring rules as you point out. When there’s human involvement, there can tend to be biases – not necessarily in fighters – but as to whether there was effective octagon control, aggression, etc. Some of this is opinion. Aggression to me may be submissive behaviour to another.
Do they need better educated judges?Definitely
Was it good to hear another side of the story? yes. No one comes out and says they take a lot NSAC judges overseas. No one from the UFC mentions they’re taking an NSAC judge to Canada for the GSP/Koscheck fight.
by Johnny Ballgame on Dec 7, 2010 10:56 AM EST reply actions
Its not a secret either though.
I for one have come to pay attention to who’s judging when a fight is going to start. Not in all fights but almost always for the main events.
"Remember that shit I gave you last week nigga? It's nothing nigga, it's nothin', it's nothing nigga, nigga it's nothing. This shit right here, nigga! This shit right here nigga, right here this shit nigga! This shit right here nigga!....This shit called deaf nigga!"
"That don't even sound attractive, you mean Ima hit it and die nigga?"
"Naw nigga, not death nigga, nigga DEAF! You hit this shit twice, you can't hear nothin'"
they put on shows in places where there are no governing bodies to speak of
So they take qualified officials from the body that governs them. Which is a good thing.
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile from them, and you'll have their shoes." - Jack Handy
by PSYQO78 on Dec 7, 2010 11:23 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I knew that but the NSAC isn't the only one they can choose from. Pick a different state if you hate their judges
by Johnny Ballgame on Dec 7, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
judges are licensed in different states. the problem isn't just the NSAC
its that there isn’t an athletic commission that’s handling this problem. NSAC and CSAC are called out the most because a lot of cards happen there. But they share judges.
"Remember that shit I gave you last week nigga? It's nothing nigga, it's nothin', it's nothing nigga, nigga it's nothing. This shit right here, nigga! This shit right here nigga, right here this shit nigga! This shit right here nigga!....This shit called deaf nigga!"
"That don't even sound attractive, you mean Ima hit it and die nigga?"
"Naw nigga, not death nigga, nigga DEAF! You hit this shit twice, you can't hear nothin'"
True
I don’t think I was clear. I meant there may be some judges licensed in Ohio or wherever that aren’t registered in NV or CA. There has to be some better judges out there (hopefully)
by Johnny Ballgame on Dec 7, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Tony Weeks is pretty good
I’d complain if I saw them taking Cecil Peoples anywhere.
"Remember that shit I gave you last week nigga? It's nothing nigga, it's nothin', it's nothing nigga, nigga it's nothing. This shit right here, nigga! This shit right here nigga, right here this shit nigga! This shit right here nigga!....This shit called deaf nigga!"
"That don't even sound attractive, you mean Ima hit it and die nigga?"
"Naw nigga, not death nigga, nigga DEAF! You hit this shit twice, you can't hear nothin'"
Just read on WKR that Weeks was one of the judges for Phan/Garcia that decided Garcia won
by Johnny Ballgame on Dec 7, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
lol hey i said pretty good, not perfect lol
"Remember that shit I gave you last week nigga? It's nothing nigga, it's nothin', it's nothing nigga, nigga it's nothing. This shit right here, nigga! This shit right here nigga, right here this shit nigga! This shit right here nigga!....This shit called deaf nigga!"
"That don't even sound attractive, you mean Ima hit it and die nigga?"
"Naw nigga, not death nigga, nigga DEAF! You hit this shit twice, you can't hear nothin'"
look at the refs for example
How many times have we seen Mirg and Dean overseas? A bunch.
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile from them, and you'll have their shoes." - Jack Handy
by PSYQO78 on Dec 7, 2010 11:29 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Hilarious...
Kizer:
I’m not going waste my time responding to that
But here’s my response…..
Just get competent judges and we’ll all be okay. When fans can do a better job of picking the winner than a judge, we have a problem.
Can you guys (mma mania) post the countdown vid??
by johnnysmash on Dec 7, 2010 11:11 AM EST via mobile reply actions
go to ufc.com
The only place that success comes before work is in the dictionary.
by Andrew Keller on Dec 7, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
the best scoring in combat sports is in K-1.
they almost always get it right and they don’t do coin flips, meaning 10-10 rounds are normal.
het mode, het cloth från topp till tåu.
Ya know
A lot of people have been saying that lately, but I can’t help but think that if this was to come to pass, people would be up in arms after every PPV that some fight was a draw.
Seems like a grass is greener thing to me.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
What is the Rampage/Machida controversy?
I only see people on the web 2nd guessing the decision. Dana said it perfect in the post fight press conference. Rampage won rounds 1 and 2. Machida won round 3. Rampage wins. Case Closed. Rampgae was 10x more aggressive in the first 2 rounds and got a takedown. Machida ran backwards like normal. Just because Machida takes over towards the end doesnt win him the fight people! Machida did not do as much as Rampage in rounds 1 and 2. Sorry but its just that simple.
Nothing Ever Changes When Nothing Ever Changes
Oh I agree. Rampage won it.
But some people saw it differently, which goes to show that subjectivity will always play a part in judging, and people will always disagree with decisions. In no way do I see Rampage-Machida as an example of bad judging.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
Neither man did anything in the first 2 rounds while Machida dominated the third
If there were more rounds in the fight then judges wouldn’t have to choose a winner on flawed criteria like who looked more aggressive when there was about 20 strikes landed in the whole 10 minutes. Instead they always have to score a round 10-9, whether it was a stalemate or total domination in case the fight ends up as a draw or a single round decides the fight. To me that shows that the 10 point must system doesn’t work for 3 round fights because it limits the scoring and results in results that don’t reflect the fight. Rampage-Machida displays how flawed it is because the man who came the closest to finishing the fight and did the most damage did not win. Unless all fights are 5 rounders (which will never happen) then we’ll continue to see controversial decisions because 3 rounds aren’t enough for a round by round scoring system to work. I’d rather see the Pride system of the winner being decided at the end by what happened throughout the whole fight but as long as the commission heads like Kizer deny that a problem exists the further we are from a solution.
"There's a few very good judges surrounded by a bunch of incompetent morons, who know nothing about the sport. They need to do something about that, because it's ruining MMA. It's making people think that this sport is corrupt. It has nothing to do with corruption. It's sheer and total incompetence."
Joe Rogan speaking the truth. Sort the judging out now.
I thougt that fight should've ended in a draw.
I mean Rampage won 1 of the first two rounds and one was more like a draw with a slight edge to rampage and machida had the 3rd of course in a more dominant way which could be a tie-breaker if they had something special like that in mma to avoid draws. the idea that fans would be pissed off if there more draws is crazy, as more draws would force the fighters to work harder. There are draws in all sports, mma should be no different, it would be better that way to make the fighters understand they need to work hard than Dana saying don’t let it go to the judges b/c he wants tp make more money on exciting fights.
het mode, het cloth från topp till tåu.
I agree and if there were more draws I think that you would see the fighters trying harder for that not to happen.
Anderson Silva is by far the number one P4P king!!! Even when he is losing a fight he still comes back and finishes for the win! GSP dominates the whole fight and still can't finish! LOL
Just keep it saying and maybe someone will listen to us
Stay strong brotha.
by Swedish Chef smerdy herdy verdy on Dec 7, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
there's always going to be controversy....
… you’ll always have controversy from time to time. but that’s why you have 3 judges. in a fight that should CLEARLY go to one fighter over the other, 2 of your 3 judges should always get that shit right. If they don’t, it’s because the judges don’t know what they’re talking about.
Phan vs. Garcia might have been the worst judging I’ve ever seen. hell, you could even make the case that the 3rd round should have been 10-8 for Phan. To try to rationalize what the judges were thinking only makes you look stupid.
Kizer should stay far, far away from this one. this is a perfect example of why all MMA judges need better / required education about the sport.
well. first thing should always be to get the ppl making decisions in best position possible.
I can’t see how sitting down there looking up at the fighters through a fence is optimal. Hell the ref is in a better position to score the fight.
het mode, het cloth från topp till tåu.
i believe they look through monitors just like Rogan and Goldie do
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile from them, and you'll have their shoes." - Jack Handy
by PSYQO78 on Dec 7, 2010 12:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
They don't unfortunately
"There's a few very good judges surrounded by a bunch of incompetent morons, who know nothing about the sport. They need to do something about that, because it's ruining MMA. It's making people think that this sport is corrupt. It has nothing to do with corruption. It's sheer and total incompetence."
Joe Rogan speaking the truth. Sort the judging out now.
by David W-S on Dec 7, 2010 1:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
then they should definitely change that
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile from them, and you'll have their shoes." - Jack Handy
by PSYQO78 on Dec 7, 2010 2:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
^^ this
I agree with Roberto. Get the judges some monitors. Hell, they don’t even really need to be cageside. Stick them in solitary confinement so they can’t be swayed by the fans cheering or booing, and let them make decisions based entirely on what is happening.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
Agreed
That would give them the best view and we wouldn’t see hometown decisions as the crowd wouldn’t distort the fight. It would also help them catch things that the ref missed like illegal strikes.
"There's a few very good judges surrounded by a bunch of incompetent morons, who know nothing about the sport. They need to do something about that, because it's ruining MMA. It's making people think that this sport is corrupt. It has nothing to do with corruption. It's sheer and total incompetence."
Joe Rogan speaking the truth. Sort the judging out now.
That explains how Hamill got screwed in England in his fight w Bisping.
Yeah one of the most bullshit judging I have ever witnessed was hamill whipping Bisping then Bisping went on to claim the decision. I was so upset over that fight!
by ScrapPackBackAgain on Dec 7, 2010 11:32 AM EST reply actions
and the only one to get that one right
Was the British judge…… the two American judges fucked Hammil on that one
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile from them, and you'll have their shoes." - Jack Handy
by PSYQO78 on Dec 7, 2010 2:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
poilic it all you want
It’s a highly flawed system and needs improving quickly.
"Now fuck off, I got work to do!" -Cyrus
Kizer has always come off as a douche bag prick.
Rogan vs. Kizer UFC:128.
"Take what is mine, hold what is mine
Suffocate what is mine, bury what's mine
Soon the water will come
And claim what is mine
I must leave it behind
And climb to a new place now"-Flood
by d*locc on Dec 7, 2010 11:43 AM EST via mobile reply actions
i'd pay to see it
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile from them, and you'll have their shoes." - Jack Handy
by PSYQO78 on Dec 7, 2010 12:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The reason they use sanctioned judges...
is the same reason they piss test. when they leave the US.
If something bad were to happen overseas it would reflect poorly on the UFC and CASC and NSAC. It would also raise questions from those governing bodies as to how honest or ethical, etc. the UFC are in running their organization.
Can you imagine if the UFC went over to Europe and institued a entirely diffrent scoring system, maybe where the there’s only one score card and that’s handed in that just simply reads “who one the fight?” oh and we are using a bunch of guys who you don’t sanction to judge but we do. Yeah right that’s going to happen.
That would piss off Nevada and California to no end and then they would stop helping the UFC branch out into other states and other countries.
Basically what I’m saying is that it’s all polotics, that’s why the UFC trys to institue the NSAC rules and people when they travel outside the US>
no your spelling killed your rant
Just fuckin with ya
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile from them, and you'll have their shoes." - Jack Handy
by PSYQO78 on Dec 7, 2010 2:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Its Joe Rogan's job to commentate
so he comments on the things he sees. EVERYONE sees the horrible judging. Just like when there’s a bad call in the NFL….you call out the refs. He’s calling out the judges and refs when they make mistakes. And before people start pointing out how they aren’t unprofessional in the NFL about it…it doesn’t happen as much in the NFL. Its not as blatant as it is in MMA.
"Remember that shit I gave you last week nigga? It's nothing nigga, it's nothin', it's nothing nigga, nigga it's nothing. This shit right here, nigga! This shit right here nigga, right here this shit nigga! This shit right here nigga!....This shit called deaf nigga!"
"That don't even sound attractive, you mean Ima hit it and die nigga?"
"Naw nigga, not death nigga, nigga DEAF! You hit this shit twice, you can't hear nothin'"
Im so happy Rogan and Dana speak their mind
Im so sick of the politically correct bullshit that goes on in sports and with the media as well. Its refreshing to hear Rogan and Dana hold nothing back when they speak. They may not always be right, but they r being honest. I live in Detroit and the first Lions game of the year Calvin Johnson and the Lions were ROBBED of a win for a no catch call that was bullshit. Not one NFL official or commentator nor one ESPN reporter come out and cried foul. The lions own coach didnt even dare to spaek his mind and bitch about the robbery. Thats why it is refreshing to hear Rogan speak what he sees and feels.
The Lions were robbed by the rule not the officials.
Same thing that happened to the Raiders against the Patriots in 2001 with the tuck rule, it was a bad rule not bad officiating.
"Before I do anything I ask myself, "Would an idiot do that?" And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing." - Dwight Schrute
by TheGreg on Dec 7, 2010 1:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Sorry mspenc24
But you have to realize that people are stupid and sit back and cry for things to change… but the moment things do change and someone becomes famous that doesnt want to act like a politician and be PC with everything, everyone starts to cry about how the person isn’t this or that. Like you, I embrace an unleashed mouth as refreshing.
Nothing Ever Changes When Nothing Ever Changes
hey!!!
Bears won. That’s all that matters.
"Remember that shit I gave you last week nigga? It's nothing nigga, it's nothin', it's nothing nigga, nigga it's nothing. This shit right here, nigga! This shit right here nigga, right here this shit nigga! This shit right here nigga!....This shit called deaf nigga!"
"That don't even sound attractive, you mean Ima hit it and die nigga?"
"Naw nigga, not death nigga, nigga DEAF! You hit this shit twice, you can't hear nothin'"
That WAS A DROPPED BALL
dude in pop warner that wouldn’t have been a TD.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
I am not sure how that rule makes any sense in football. The ground can’t cause a fumble but it can cause an incomplete pass no matter how many feet you get down or how many steps you take as long as you are going to the ground?
he never had possession of it
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
Its not that the ball causes an incomplete pass
its the player who does not maintain possession thru the “entirety of the play”. Apparently, and I don’t necessarily agree, the play isn’t over until the player has basically stopped moving on the ground or is up and still has possession.
the name “Urijah Bieber” is disturbing. lol
"Remember that shit I gave you last week nigga? It's nothing nigga, it's nothin', it's nothing nigga, nigga it's nothing. This shit right here, nigga! This shit right here nigga, right here this shit nigga! This shit right here nigga!....This shit called deaf nigga!"
"That don't even sound attractive, you mean Ima hit it and die nigga?"
"Naw nigga, not death nigga, nigga DEAF! You hit this shit twice, you can't hear nothin'"
That isn’t true though. If a player catches the ball and runs into the goal post as long as he had 2 feet down and established possession they aren’t going to over turn that. Why are the rules different on the ground and the interpretation of that rule is horrid.
And he did have possession. He had the ball firmly grasped in his hand. It was not moving until he let go of it on the ground.
every judge should have to judge 50 amature fights and pass exams on all striking/submission techniques before they are allowed to judge.
they should be fans of the sport as well.
by Conan the Barbarian on Dec 7, 2010 12:18 PM EST reply actions
Good idea
Another idea – start hiring retired fighters.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
Then you open a Pandora’s Box of ‘bias’ cries.
“He only scored it that way because he once trained with Fighter X’s brothers cousins nephew, so he’s clearly biased!”
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
That is a small possibility but the best refs have been retired fighters like Herb Dean
and as long as due diligence is done in eliminating conflict of interest this shouldn’t be any more of an issue that it is in other sports.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
True
but it wouldn’t stop the same people that do so now. Perception of bias can be worse than bias itself, sometimes.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
I think retired fighters
would care more about the sport and getting the call right than minor biases they might carry for or against fighters.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
and I would certainly trade a few small isolated cases of professional bias over clowns who
don’t know what they’re even scoring in the first place.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
Dont go to extremes bud
Thats how overbearing government looks at things. we have 20 judges and 2 are stupid, lets now make everyone suffer for it.
It’s easy enough to just educate them and make a universal scoring system thats less based on opinion.
Nothing Ever Changes When Nothing Ever Changes
he isn't going to extremes here
judging 50 amateur fights and learning about the techniques of the sport are hardly draconian measures…
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
any universal scoring system is going to favor one style over the other. can you imagine the shitstorm that would happen if set values started being added to take downs, sub attempts, jabs, "power shots" body shots, low kick, weak leg kicks, body kicks,,
a judge is supposed to JUDGE a fight. it comes down to opinion in any sport with judging. you can make it a mathematical formula, but good judges are a must and for that you need testing and experience. if a judge makes questionable decisions he/she should have to explain them to what sanctioning body they eport to. it’s called accountability.
by Conan the Barbarian on Dec 7, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
Total cop out
All Kizer did was make a load of excuses and whine about Rogan hurting his feelings. Clearly this moron has no intention in dealing with the problem and it’s attitudes like this that are holding back the sport. It’s clear that the judging system use by these commissions doesn’t work because every event there is at least one bad decision. Instead of trying to cover up the problem and bash the fans and officials for rightly complaining Kizer and the other heads of these commissions should do their job and bring competency to judging. The sport will go backwards with these morons applying the rules.
"There's a few very good judges surrounded by a bunch of incompetent morons, who know nothing about the sport. They need to do something about that, because it's ruining MMA. It's making people think that this sport is corrupt. It has nothing to do with corruption. It's sheer and total incompetence."
Joe Rogan speaking the truth. Sort the judging out now.
by David W-S on Dec 7, 2010 12:22 PM EST via mobile reply actions
UFC in Toronto???
Sorry, a change of subject I"ve been hearing on news here in Toronto that the UFC has booked the Rogers Centre (Center for you Amerks) for April 30th.
If true, it WILL be the largest ever audience for a MMA event.
Rogers Centre can accomodate 50,000 + for Baseball, so I’m sure the crowd for UFC will exceed that.
a pschic midget escaped from prison today...
Headline...SMALL, MEDIUM at LARGE
Agree with Rogan
It is good to see Rogan state that there is an issue with the judging…at the same time he should’ve brought it up during the Rampage / Machida fight; a fight with consequences.
In addition, Kizer appears a bit defensive. He should simply man up and admit to the lousy judging as of late. Really it has not been until the last few years that I can remember strange decisions. You just sort of knew who the winnter should be.
A couple judging items come to mind: Being aggressive does not necessarily equate to Octagon control. An effective submission attempt should have equal weight as a take down and should count as control as well.
Anyway, good topic and at least it is a start that something will perhaps change.
Round 3 was close? Is that a joke?
Humor was never Kizer’s strong point. Only round 1 was close and it was Phan’s as well. 30-27 Phan.
by Swedish Chef smerdy herdy verdy on Dec 7, 2010 2:35 PM EST reply actions
There is a growing rift between Kizer and the UFC
The UFC will win. trust me.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Trust you?? Not likely!
With Fabers chin and Biebers hair, I don’t trust a think you say!
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
Hopefully the Fertitta's influence on the NSAC will play a positive role in this case and force out a clearly ineffective leader
"There's a few very good judges surrounded by a bunch of incompetent morons, who know nothing about the sport. They need to do something about that, because it's ruining MMA. It's making people think that this sport is corrupt. It has nothing to do with corruption. It's sheer and total incompetence."
Joe Rogan speaking the truth. Sort the judging out now.
Ways to fix judging
1. have an MMA or martial arts background outside of boxing. (though, I can only imagine what a bunch of former wrestling coaches might score)
2. higher former fighters as judges.
3. require a short explanation for the score.
4. give them the benefit of monitors at the judging table.
5. give commissions more latitude in fixing bad decisions.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
hire*
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
The most important point made by Kizer.
You all seem to be missing the most crucial thing here. Kizer was upset at Joe for his comments, so he called bullshit on Dana for always telling us how the UFC has nothing to do with the judges. Once again, Dana has been caught lying to the public. I am 100% positive that Dana is paying off the judges in favor of giving decisions to the more “marketable” fighters in the UFC. Joe Rogan is thrown in there to look like the good guy and agree with the fans swearing to us that although this sport LOOKS like its corrupt (due to these obviously bad calls) that in fact it’s not.
Good cop/ bad cop
In the end, it’s all about money and we the fans get short-changed.
" Its a good thing you look good in that suit, cos that's all you're gonna be doing - wearing a suit."
I wouldn't go that far
but I think it’s clear that the organizations play some sort of role in judging and refereeing, whether monetary, pressure, or what have you. It is a bit silly to think otherwise.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
nothing surprises me anymore. also after some of rogans commentary ( diaz vs maynard just comes to mind) I definetly think dana pays him to only talk up one fighter sometimes
The Red Wings will come back stronger
RESTORE THE ROAR 2010 Detroit Lions
No doubt!
There have definitely been a few times I wondered what the hell he was watching by the way he blathered on about one fighter over the other, especially when that fighter was losing. I don’t know if Dana tells him to do so, or if he is stoned for the night, or what – but sometimes is nuthuggery is crazy obvious.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
also the mac danzig vs justin buchholz
I remember danzig lands like a crappy leg kick and gets droped by punches at the same time and all rogan has to say about it " WHAT A LEG KICK BY DANZIG" but the fucking guy got droped clean and he just stays silent and he says absolutly nothing about the fight until danzig gets up
The Red Wings will come back stronger
RESTORE THE ROAR 2010 Detroit Lions
In defense of Joe
I saw the same things in that Maynard fight and so did the entire group of people I watched it with. Joe is bias a lot of times but it’s never from a “company man” perspective. He’s been plugging Fedor since 03 in the UFC and routinely says Nick Diaz is a top 10 p4p fighter.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
Did you see Kimbo vs Matt Mitrione? Up until the point Kimbo finally lost, Rogan was ranting how good he was, how much hes improved, etc. All despite what our eyes were telling us.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
Kimbo did look better for a while in that fight.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
All Kimbo had were his slams
His TDD, striking, cardio and BJJ were as awful as always.
"There's a few very good judges surrounded by a bunch of incompetent morons, who know nothing about the sport. They need to do something about that, because it's ruining MMA. It's making people think that this sport is corrupt. It has nothing to do with corruption. It's sheer and total incompetence."
Joe Rogan speaking the truth. Sort the judging out now.
He still looked better
Don’t get the controversy here.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
He looked like the same Kimbo we had seen forever. No change. But if one listened to Rogan, one would think that Kimbo was becoming the next GSP in well-roundedness.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
I thought he looked improved in all areas
especially wrestling. Then it turns out he wasn’t as good as he looked. Whatever. Rogan was calling that fight fairly imo. Not a big deal though.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 9:12 PM EST up reply actions
What is one decision where you feel like dana paid for a winner
name one
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
I'll name a few
Rampage/Machida
Machida/Rua
Phan Daam/Garcia
Bisping/Hamil
Randy/Vera
" Its a good thing you look good in that suit, cos that's all you're gonna be doing - wearing a suit."
wow, wrong on so many levels.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
Wait and see gentlemen.
Trust me when I tell you this: It’s only a matter of time before he does something SO FUCKING OBVIOUS, that even those who disagree with me will be left wiping the egg of their faces, wondering how they were so blind and ignorant to the truth.
Until then……I hope it’s comfortable in that dark safe corner you hide in.
" Its a good thing you look good in that suit, cos that's all you're gonna be doing - wearing a suit."
The only thing laughable here
Is your inability to see that MAYBE, there is a SLIM chance that Dana White is corrupt. If you can’t get your mind around the possibility that money leads to corruption, then you deserve to remain ignorant, and eat up everything spoon fed to you by the media, govt, etc.
Take care.
" Its a good thing you look good in that suit, cos that's all you're gonna be doing - wearing a suit."
Oh I completely acknowledge that Dana White is corrupt and greedy. But it is not worth it for him to be corrupt in the ways you state. Influencing the outcomes of fights by bribing judges would be about the dumbest thing he could do and would directly lead to the downfall of his company if caught. It just is not worth it.
I expected an idiot reply
but this takes the cake.
What other decisions are suspected? So are bad decisions in SF Coker’s doing?
Did Rebney pay for Curran vs Imada?
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
Prove me wrong Bieber.
Convince me that there is ZERO possability of corruption in MMA. From there, please illustrate how boxing (corrupt) is so much different than MMA.
I can’t wait to see the light.
" Its a good thing you look good in that suit, cos that's all you're gonna be doing - wearing a suit."
I never said there was "Zero possibility"
of anything. I just think those decisions hardly prove or even suggest corruption in that case. You’re the one rambling here. Burden of proof is yours.
Anyway what makes boxing so much different is there is rarely accusations of “home town cooking” in MMA, while that charge permeates boxing decisions on all levels quite often. Not that I needed to answer this question, or that it has anything to do with anything.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
Last time I checked
Bisping’s hometown is in the UK…….the same place he was awarded a bullshit decision over Hamill.
Anyways, I will agree to disagree with you on this matter. For the sake of MMA, I hope I am wrong. Sadly, I really don’t think I am.
" Its a good thing you look good in that suit, cos that's all you're gonna be doing - wearing a suit."
I expected an idiot reply
but this takes the cake.
What other decisions are suspected? So are bad decisions in SF Coker’s doing?
So….you call me an idiot for stating this, and then backpedal saying that maybe Dana actually is corrupt?
I’m done with you on this matter.
" Its a good thing you look good in that suit, cos that's all you're gonna be doing - wearing a suit."
What are you babbling about
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
There is some merit to dec3ptKon....
…at the end of the day we need better judging…but Dana was caught in a lie…(if Kiser is telling the truth)….it was also a bit odd as to was how infuriated he appeared to be that fans (that pay for the flipn’ PPV’s) were in disagreement with the Michada/Rampage fight…
ok so kizer said dana white is bringing up Marc Ratner are flying Tony Weeks, this is what I want to know. What fights have they scored recently because maybe these are the judges that arnt dumb and maybe we need to be thanking dana for bringing the good judges with him
The Red Wings will come back stronger
RESTORE THE ROAR 2010 Detroit Lions
i have no idea why Kizer brought up Ratner
Ratner has been a Zuffa employee since like ‘06. He is the president or vice president of regulatory affairs. He used to be the executive director of the NSAC. He’s way beyond judging
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile from them, and you'll have their shoes." - Jack Handy
by PSYQO78 on Dec 7, 2010 5:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Dana and the UFC's hands are tied
they bring the NSAC officials with them, but they don’t control their hiring in the first place.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
I'm way late
I was at work all day so i’m just reading this post and have no clue if this was mentioned but 3 round fights just aren’t good for the 10 point must system. That’s why there’s so many blown decisions. There just aren’t enough rounds for such a tightly judged fight. Unless they come up with a new way of judging or maybe make the rounds 3 min and have 5 rounds this will continue to happen. Problem is 3 minute rounds don’t allow some fighters enough time to work their gameplan. It’s a big dilemma they have. They rarely come up with 10-8 rounds when they should (unless someone has a point deducted), so a guy can get pummelled and only lose the round 10-9. If he survives and takes the next 2 rounds very unconvincingly he just won yet got his head handed to him. I have no clue about what other judging can even be implemented but if they stay with the 10 point must system the only way to get rid of this is to add more rounds. If they do that there will be less chance of the scoring being horrifically wrong. Again, i have no clue what i’m talking about but neither did the judges watching the garcia, pham fight.
I'm too stupid to think of anything clever to put here.
Very true
3 minutes work for boxing only because there’s 1 style. That’s why i mentioned 3 minutes just won’t work for certain fighting styles. But you can’t go with more rounds at the 5 minute rate. Unfortunately this is a problem they’re gonna have for a while until they come up with a revolutionary way of judging. It would be great if it was simply like a video game and the energy bar just went down til they were done but we’re still a long ways away from that.
I'm too stupid to think of anything clever to put here.
Ya I'd say were a ways away from energy bars in MMA scoring
you smoke weed doncha?
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
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