A closer look at the official scorecards for UFC 104: 'Machida vs Shogun' (Pic)

how can you give machida both rounds u kiden me

shut your cock sucker yo316 – you sound like a lil girl right now chump

i dont get it ..

wow they gave machida the first 3 rounds. oh well I’m bored of this.

Nelson Hamilton gives the 4th to Machida?

All I can say after all this, I gotta go back and watch this fight again. At the time both me and my buddy thought that Shogun won. I’d like to know what the judges saw in those first rounds that gave Machida the fight.

Get a piece of paper and a pen, watch the fight without sounds, without emotion. Jot down the scoring points as they happen. It took me several viewings to see actually it was close and not an outright robbery.

you know, at first, i gave the judges a hard time. I was very upset. I said their judging sucked and they were wrong. After seeing this……………now i jsut think that they are flat out idiots and should all be fined for stupidity.

Everyone thought Shogun won because Joe Rogan and Mike Goldberg sold it that way. Watch it with the sound off and notice that everytime Shogun throws a body kick/leg kick he gets punched in the face (9 of 10).

the biggest scandal isn’t that machida won, because it was a close fight. shogun probably won by 3 rounds to 2. its how two judges who do this for a living (and get paid) thought that machida won round 1. it just shows that even when you have the best seats in the house the best view is on tv

It amazes me how two judges give a round to a fighter and the other to the other fighter. Shows you how subjetive this thing is. It must suck balls to leave your fate at the hands of three incompetent people.

Scoring needs to be revamped BIG TIME

Judge the fight as a whole like Pride – boxing scoring does LITTLE when its 5 rounds MAX when really determining the winner of a fight

also – i really hate the phrase “Cant let it go to the judges hands” is the stupidiest thing ever – when you have 2 top level fighters its the little details that count in determining a winner

im sure both wanted to knock the other out – but its alittle hard when youre both professionals and you only have 5 rounds to do it.

stupid stupid phrase.

Besides the excitement and frustration of Shogun’s fans about this fight, after reviewing the tapes and reading the comments of judges and more moderate fans, the outcome of the fight is not shocking or anything. The fact that Shogun pushed the pace, didn’t make him more accurate or dominant, as to conclude he won the battle.
It was definitely a close fight, so Machida winning the fight it’s just one of the various logical results we could have seen.
A rematch is the right thing to do to settle this incident… So it’s time to stop shedding tears for this episode… too much.

Exactly what are supposed to glean from looking at the cards? Handwriting analysis?

The scoring’s been available for days.

I watched the fight in a bar…and couldn’t even hear Rogan’s ass saying anything. I just saw one fighter being progressively broken down (La Cheetah), while the other fighter was doing the breaking (Shogun).

The scoring system needs to be changed completely:

0 points for an even round.
1 point for the winner of a close round.
2 points for the winner of a decisive round.
3 points for the winner of a dominate round.

Most points wins.

How are these “Net points” calculated?

Notice how close each round was? wow.

While watching the fight I felt that Shogun was winning because I value leg kicks more than judges, apparently.

After rewatching the fight, I can understand how Machida could win given the flawed scoring system. There is no difference between barely squeaking out a round and clearly winning a round (just not dominating to the extent needed for a 10-8).

I feel that the judges should be encouraged to give 10-8 or even 10-7 rounds more often. Sure, maybe Machida squeaked out those first 3 rounds…but they were DAMN close. Then Shogun CLEARLY won the last two rounds.

To me, the question “who got beat up” and “who won the fight” should not have different answers.

Wasn’t there a post up by one of the judges (it was linked in the other thread..) explaining how failed takedowns are not scored whereas stuffing a takedown is scored as effective grappling, also how they saw shoguns aggression as “inneffective” and felt he was being led by machida – and that the kicks were not leading to anything (ko etc)

anyway a lot of us (including fans of neither fighter) said we thought shogun took it live but after watching again more carefully would give 1 and 2 either way, 3 to chida and 4 + 5 to shogun…which matches up exactly with what the judges are saying

to be frank you guys giving shogun every round but 3 (or even all 5, what?) are the bias ones – what exactly did he do to definatively take rounds 1 and 2?

Shogun was stolen!

I agree with you, Stinky

rd#1 = shogun/10 – machida/9
rd#2 = machida/10 – shogun/9
rd#3 = shogun/10 – machida/10
rd#4 = shogun/10 – machida/9
rd#5 = shogun/10 – machida/9

final score – shogun/49 – machida/47

this is stupid i wanted to see shogun win over machida but all of this judging shit is too much. thats what happens when you fight the champ they always get the benfifit of the doubt since they are the champ with the belt. the only way that you can get a decision over a champ is to have some real impressive moments where they are in trouble in order to sway the judges decision to go the way of the underdog

no need to rewatch it in mute when the crowd how can’t listen to rogen’s commentary clearly booed machida after winning. they aren’t uneducated, with the exception of asston kutcher and demi moore.

Cecil peoples sucks!
sh*t for brains!!!

Cecil peoples sucks!
sh*t for brains!!!
it was close, but shogun won that fight
give the man his belt and fire those retarded judges!

machda won, cant wait for the rematch, im done talking about this

ALL THOSE IDIOT JUDGES SHUD BE BANNED FORM MMA FOR LIFE. & STUPID CECIL PEOPLES SHUD BE SHOT IN HIS FACE!!!

I thought Machida won rounds 1, 2, and 3 with Shogun winning rounds 4 and 5. People need to look at the fight round by round.

I wont say Machida won because i dont think he did. But I can see where the judges issues would have been. First of all we all had to listen to joe rogan and no matter who you were cheering for or what you were thinking he was very biased and makes you second guess shit. Machida kicked shogun in the ribs n Shogun countered with a kick to the calf and all you heard about was the counter. and it carried on like that all fight

Second i beleive most of these judges or more that likely all of them came from a boxing back ground so the fact that almost all of shoguns attack was to the legs and body where as machida had several very decent punch combos land probably didnt boad well for shogun you would have to think a boxing judge naturally scores the punch combos higher

Third Shogun definately didnt do himself any favours with all the failed take down attempts which gives machida the edge in grappling and octagon control

So overall Machida won the punching, grappling and octagon control and with all of those flying knees the body work was probably a push . so shogun won the leg kicks. With attempts to finish the fight being part of scoring you have to wonder how much they consider leg kicks an attempt to finish the fight

Ok, so why can’t fighters tie a round? Those first two rounds should have been draws. Then, Shogun turns it on, whops his ass and still loses. I think the whole thing needs to be rethought before it turns out to be as big a problem as the BCS. Plus, with the current system, fighters win on luck. Thats why Machida freaked when he won, becasue he knew he lost.

I scored how Rosales did. 1-3 Machida 4-5 Rua

Rounds are based on grappling, striking, agression, octagon control….
Machida won all 5 rounds grappling first of all..
I judge rounds by splitting them in half (2:30/2:30) who won the first half, who won the 2nd half of the round, if 1 half was pretty close, winner of other half gets the round…if its up in the air, then its anybodys, but i would give it to the champ (which will come later).
 I think, respectively, striking should be scored the highest of all other aspects, then agression/grappling depending on how the fight goes, in this case aggression had more of an impact than grappling, then octagon control.
i agree with Rylie how u can always tell who Rogans goin for…Goldie has a mind of his own, but this was a case of dbl bias.
However, i also strongly thought a lot opinions were altered due to all the hype given to machida…B4 the fight, the UFC made it sound like Machida was invincible (i.e. He is the least hit opponent in mma averaging only getting hit once every 2 rounds), i, myself thought it was goin to the championship rounds and told many people that its waaay closer than the poll told…13% for Shogun??? i gave it a 65% chance w/Machida which turned out closer than that.

1st rd. – Machida both halfs…strikes were pretty even, shogun got a few better landed, but the other aspects (A {aggression}, G {grappling, and OC {octagon control}) were all Machida…so u gotta give it to Machida.

2nd rd. – Was very close, i called it a draw for the first half of the round, and gave the edge of the 2nd half to Machida
because he was more dominant again on everything else…i did start giving the edge of striking (soley) by the end of the round to Shogun, but he wasnty clearly dominating the striking yet, so that in itself was not enough to take the round when he wasnt impressing me with the other aspects

3rd rd. – U could make a few arguments for Machida, but i thought the judges were off on the next 2 rounds.. Shogun was taking over striking in an efficient manner & starterd to surpass in the aggression aspect as well…(Note*none of the rounds were a 10-8), and as stated above…those 2 aspects were a strong part of this bout..even OC was more important than Grappling..So this shouldve been a round in favor of Shogun.

4th rd. – Now u could tell Machida’s legs were done at this point, but he was still being aggressive (which shows what a champ he is cuz he’s still attacking), i gave the A and G aspect to him, but Striking was still in favor for Shogun, and OC was swaying toward Shogun as well… and since i feel if its close like that i would favor Striking + any other aspect that is judged as the superior scoring: thus, i gave this to Shogun.

5th rd. – This was suppose to be the defining round…This is where Shogun needed to show he wanted the belt…Get out there and fuckin finish the rest of Machida (not just the left leg and left abdomen)..it didnt happen..Also b4 the round, it only showed Shogun’s corner, saying, “U Won, u Won”, meanwhile I heard thru the grapevine that Machida’s corner was telling him likewise as well, but thats what happens with camera men is they pick a corner to side on in each break between rounds..
This round was the closest of them all.. i could not really decisively say, “Yes, Shogun won that round or Yes, Machida took that round.” i broke it down in 2 halfs like i do….the striking was pretty even, but what upset me about Shogun is he never pulled the trigger…U have the champ hurt limping, barely leaning on his leg, and u dont pursue him? yet Machida was still giving the most valiant of efforts that a wounded warrior could attack with…I gave the A aspect to Machida again, OC was too close to call so i said even Stevens, G like i said was all Machida (and some might say there was none, there was a bit…the only edge Shogun had was when MAchida slipped and Shogun went for the takedown and Machida nullified it which voids it…a mistake/slip shouldnt deduct ones ponts..points should be awarded if the mistake was taken advantage of and granted Shogun tried, but couldnt…which showed that despite his leg and roast beef-looking abs, Machida was still capable of putting up a fight..
Then, there’s the Striking which Shogun shouldve tooken over, but it was close again..and as i said b4, strikes were pretty even, though Shogun had more snap to it (obviously) the number was close, and i wouldve given a slight edge to Shogun…
So where does that lead us?
-> A – MAchida, G – Machida, OC – Draw, S – Shogun, and i said above Striking + any other aspect = the round, but alas, the dilemma lies there…it comes down to
Striking vs. Aggression/Grappling, i say the round was a draw, and since u cant give it a 10-10..tie goes to the champ..
I know ill get the peeps that’ll say throw that Boxing BS out the window, but i think my judgment of the fight is more detailed reasonable and accurate than even the judges scorecards above…but i would hate to be the judge in this bout…cuz they dont have the time to break it down like us.. and i honestly thought Shogun was gonna take it that nite, but it wouldntve been impressive…I thought Rampage won the Forrest fight…but at least they both came very close on closing the deal..Forrest more dominant with the kicks AND guillotine choke, AND dominant ground position (in that fight round 2) whereas Shogun only gave Kicks and never sought to end the fight at all…Granted not at all Machida’s best performance, but enough to defend it with a lacksadaisy pursuit from Shogun.
i think the loss for Shogun is actually better cuz now he has way more support etc..and i believe the rematch will be better and will go to the ground!
-Ruda

Just when you thought everyone got on with their lives here we go again. Sad, very sad.

Machida won the first three rounds without a question. Last two rounds definitely to Shogun.

you guys are haters machida won fair and square

just wait untill the rematch the dragon will knock out rua cold just like rashad
machida is the man and is unstopable
just wait and see rua is washed up
bad night for machida but still won

" you have to beat the champ to be the champ" and rua did not
rua is not ready to be ufc champion plain and simple

On 10-23-09 I wrote the following email to my friend who said Machida was unbeatable:

Although I think Machida is a great fighter, I think Shogun wins in an “upset.” Here’s why: 1. Machida is small for a light heavyweight, and Shogun will likely outweigh him by 15 to 20 pounds on the night of the fight. Although Machida is very elusive, Shogun will be able to use his size advantage to pin Machida against the cage at some point in a 5 round fight. Shogun will have the advantage in the clinch, which means he will be able to knee Machida’s legs and dominate if it goes to the ground. We’ve really never seen Machida’s guard, and he was very lucky in escaping a triangle during his fight against Tito. Shogun has the advantage on the ground, and may win the fight by keeping Machida on his back.
2. Shogun is from the Chute Box Academy and is a master at Muay Thai. If he can slow the pace down and keep kicking Machida’s legs, Machida will not be as elusive. Shogun must have the discipline not to get in a war. He doesn’t have to.
3.When Machida returned to Brazil, he was treated as a hero. Machida said that he has never had to deal with the press like he has after beating Evans. Machida’s wife even said that Machida was dressing better than ever, and has become more self-confident since becoming the champ. Machida also had to move his camp in the middle of training to a private farm due to all the distractions. I think Machida will come into the fight overconfident, and that moving his camp was a HUGE problem for Machida.
3. Unlike his fight with Forrest and Coleman, Shogun will be in shape, and is very good at defending himself during standup and
counterstriking, as he did against Chuck.
4. Machida was shown drinking his own urine during training. Think about this. Machida believes that he is so perfect, that even his own urine cannot be wasted. This is overconfidence, and will cost machida the fight. If Shogun fights the right way, there wil be no KO, and the fight will be a five-round decision. Shogun is going to have to take the title without being overly aggressive. I think Shogun shocks Machida by decision.
     I scored Shogun clearly winning 4 rounds to 1, but then changed my score to Shogun by 3 rounds to 2, just to make up for Machida’s “champion factor.” At first, I thought we had just witnessed the “WWE-ing” of the UFC, and for the first time in my life, I thought the fight was fixed, because there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that Machida won that fight. After thinking about it, however, what I believe happened is that the judges in LA were boxing judges, who clearly didn’t know how to score an MMA fight. I don’t think they thought leg kicks were score-worthy enough to beat the champ. I HOPE this is the case, and I’m willing to give Dana White the benefit of the doubt, but ONLY THIS ONCE.

On 10-20-09, I sent the following e-mail to my friend who told me Machida was unbeatable. This the exact e-mail I sent him:

Erich:
 
    Although I think Machida is a great fighter, I think Shogun wins in an “upset.” Here’s why:

1. Machida is small for a light heavyweight, and Shogun will outweigh him on the night of the fight. Although Machida is very elusive, Shogun comes from the Chute Box Muay Thai gym in Brazil. He will be able to use his size advantage to pin Machida against the cage and knee him in the legs several times in a five-round fight. Shogun will have the advantage in the clinch, which means he could take Machida to the ground and dominate him due to the size difference. We’ve really never seen Machida’s guard, and he was very lucky in escaping a triangle during his fight against Tito. Shogun has the advantage on the ground, and could win the fight by keeping Machida on his back.

2. We’ve never seen Machida take leg kicks from a Muay Thai striker like Shogun. If Shogun can just be patient, and kick Machida’s legs as many times as he can while covering up and not rushing in, he will immobilize Machida late in a five-round fight.

3. When Machida returned to Brazil, he was treated as a hero. Machida said that he has never had to deal with the press like he has after beating Evans. Machida’s wife even said that Machida was dressing better than ever, and has become more self-confident since becoming the champ. Machida also had to move his camp in the middle of training to a private farm due to all the distractions. Don’t discount how HUGE of a problem this will be for Machida.

4. Machida drinks his own urine during training. Think about this from a psychological standpoint. What Machida is really saying is, “I’m so perfect, that my urine cannot be wasted, and I don’t want to lose any part of my perfect fighting spirit.” This is MORE than overconfidence, this is believing that you are actually superhuman.

5. Unlike his fight with Forrest and Coleman, Shogun will be in shape, and is very good at defending himself during standup and
counterstriking, as he did against Chuck.

END OF E-MAIL

  After the fight, I originally had Shogun winning by 4 rounds to 1, but after considering the belief that there is a “champion factor,” by which the champion gets all the close calls, I changed my score to Shogun 3 rounds, Machida 2 rounds. I was shocked when Machida was announced the winner.

  At that moment, I thought that we had just seen the beginning of the “WWE-ing” of the UFC, and for the first time ever, I thought the fight was fixed. However, I’m willing to give Dana White the benefit of the doubt JUST THIS ONCE.

   What I believed happened, was that these judges were boxing judges, and not true MMA judges. I don’t think they realized how effective leg kicks can be, and didn’t see enough head punches by Shogun to justify taking Machida’s title away.

    At any rate, there is NO WAY an experienced MMA/UFC/Pride fan thinks Machida won that fight, because he didn’t!

Look folks its simple this fight was fixed well allow me to go more in depth. The reason we have not seen much of this is past should be obvious its not as big as boxing well not in all aspects yet but sat shows that we are getting there. Boxing matches are normally rigged a few ways 1) they pay fighter or fighters to take dives or lose or whatever non sense fits in this category 2) they fix the judges pay one or two to judge a certain way. Its funny to hear “you have to absolutely beat the champ to win” in other words what would normally win a fight does not qualify in this occasion how the Fux did this fly how did anyone allow this in case you don’t understand ill explain. By accepting these terms you make it so a 600 to 700 point underdog can win a fight then be robbed by Vegas and other gambling outpost who control much of the boxing and mma world on the big stage anyways. Again we are only starting to see this now because people are no longer just watching the sport they are now buying merchandise and relevant to this argument they are now gambling on the sport. This BS “you have to absolutely beat the champ to win” was created by the casinos and other gambling outpost to make it so if they F-upped on points (EXP: Rua +350 vs Machida -400) they can fix the judges if possible, obviously as long as the Champ doesn’t get KO’d. And then say well you know dont leave it in the judges hand which i agree you should never do if you are dealing with People like dana and the bunch(Casino Fuxing owners Hellllo) and to boot will say the famous BS “you have to absolutely beat the champ to win”. It has been done in boxing forever now it will happen in mma well really probably only
UFC for now none of the others have enough people betting money or big money yet. So in conclusion Dana probably didn’t Rig anything he is a puppet and neither did his visible partners/real owners (the casino kids) but there daddys friends did or maybe the people they have got in bed with over the years and i dont mean the Ring girls they bang. Rua and Machida were not in on this well i really doubt it hell im positive but machida sure did handle it very Bisping like I dislike both of them its funny i have disliked machida way before this and i disliked bisping long before the hamill fight.

I’m curious how these are the “official” scorecards when it’s the same handwriting on all three. Do they transcribe the judge’s scorecards onto these “official” scorecards?

MMACrossfire – Read the post Mental midget

“This BS "you have to absolutely beat the champ to win" was created by the casinos and other gambling outpost to make it so if they F-upped on points (EXP: Rua +350 vs Machida -400) they can fix the judges if possible, obviously as long as the Champ doesn’t get KO’d.”

That’s ridiculous! Were the judges even watching the fight properly?
By the way, I wonder how people even got a hold of these score cards to be posted publicly online hehe.